Raptor Winch Bumper- Fail?

[swamp2]

This is definitely a tow strap attached to someone taking a run at it...

No one claimed it was winching - it's obviously not. The first person report just above claims it was a kinetic strap not a tow strap. Hard to see if much stretch was obtained, but if didn't look like much.

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[popo_patty]

Not much math - one multiply and one add . This rig is minimum 6k not 5k and the guidelines I'm familiar with add 150% of vehicle weight when stuck up to the body. So 15k lb. Gear needed should have safety factor of 2 or 3, so all gear, including bumper should be rated for 30k lb.

30k is also my rule of thumb number for strength for my gear.

I wonder how many companies build surrogate jigs and pull test their gear to failure? My guess is very few. I know my Monster Hooks rear soft shackle mounts were tested this way, with factory bolts and Grade 8 "upgrades" as well. Factory bolts performed better. There is far too much armchair engineering in the offroad aftermarket world...

So I was right! Way more than 5k loool. Monster Hooks does a great job at R&D for sure.

 

[Mr Bacon Jr]

FWIW- I have ADD bumpers front and rear on my Wildtrack. I did the install, so I know how they are mounted. No way I would trust the install engineering to hold in a recovery situation. Secured with U-nuts and fender washers across a pretty large gap. Fine in a collision (compression) but if you put real tension on it, they will fail.

It’s on my to-do list to have them re-engineered with welded mount points. I have Monster Hooks frame mounted recovery points rear, and am looking for similar on the front.

 

[DewarT]

FWIW- I have ADD bumpers front and rear on my Wildtrack. I did the install, so I know how they are mounted. No way I would trust the install engineering to hold in a recovery situation. Secured with U-nuts and fender washers across a pretty large gap. Fine in a collision (compression) but if you put real tension on it, they will fail.

It’s on my to-do list to have them re-engineered with welded mount points. I have Monster Hooks frame mounted recovery points rear, and am looking for similar on the front.

Thanks for the feedback.

That was my concern and exactly what bit 5Angels in that video. Unfortunately for him- many of us can learn from his $3,000 problem. At least ADD stepped up with a new bumper, but you would think they would include their frame reinforcement with the bumpers that have a winch or even just recovery points.

I suppose you cant expect every manufacture to completely load test their designs, but there should be some basic engineering calculations involved. A little research into the Ford winch mount probably would have pointed them in the right direction!

 

[Tricky Mike]

Wowzers. After my experiences with our frame horns I'm not terribly surprised, but man that sucks.

Possible he's out of stock. What say @Tricky Mike

Yeah sorry, I've paused production for the foreseeable future. My manufacturing costs are too high and they are too labor intensive on my end to offer at a fair price. In the meanwhile I encourage everyone to get something, even the LOD brackets would likely have saved this, although there might still have been some bending.

 

[MillerAndCheeto]

ADD or LOD have the same brackets. I paid a local welder to add gussets. Tricky's came with gussets and under-mount attachments (provided support for the winch wanting to pivot as the moment-arm of the winch is ~8" above center for the high mount cases, wanting to rotate the assembly due to, up to, 7,500 ft-lbs of torque during a winch pull), vs just pulling forward. This is why the brackets underneath the frame exist on the Ford design.

While the ADD and LOD brackets will work to reduce this rotational force, truly the only thing stopping it is the force of the hardware holding the brackets to the frame. The recommended torque from the Ford design was, if I recall correctly, 80-100 ft pounds? Don't quote me, but I recall it being substantial. But the only true way of stopping the rotation is a physical barrier - ie the underside mounts of Ford and Tricky's design. I also recall some after market bumpers having this feature in their design.

Long story short; TLDR;
Winch + no brackets = 1/10
Winch + brackets = 3/10
Winch + gusseted brackets = 6/10
Winch + brackets + undermount = 10/10 (Ford's actual design for the Everglades winch)

 

[JediMcMuffin]

My winch is using the Metalcloak front bumper, you mount these wings to the the frame first:

Then the bumper is connected to those wings with 4 rather larger bolts on each side, two vertical, one horizontal, one at 45 degree upward angle:

Curious if anyone with a better eye sees weaknesses needing the bumper to frame reinforcements other folks have been discussing.

 

[swamp2]

While the ADD and LOD brackets will work to reduce this rotational force..

These will reduce the stress and deflection but not the force

 

[Fordified1]

The Fab Fours bumpers have plates on the bottom that slide under and bolt with the intercooler mounts I believe. They’re also made from 3/16 Plate instead of 9 or 10 guage (1/8”) that some manufacturers use. The tiw hook brackets also poke through and are welded on both sides with added gussets inside. Between those extra plates and bolts on the bottom and added LOD brackets, I’m going to feel a lot more confident flat towing (or winching) mine. Hardened flat washers and grade 8 or 10.9 hardware are always a good idea also.

 

[Oldhippie]

Glad I got the TD brackets before he discontinued them…

 

[PEGB]

ADD or LOD have the same brackets. I paid a local welder to add gussets. Tricky's came with gussets and under-mount attachments (provided support for the winch wanting to pivot as the moment-arm of the winch is ~8" above center for the high mount cases, wanting to rotate the assembly due to, up to, 7,500 ft-lbs of torque during a winch pull), vs just pulling forward. This is why the brackets underneath the frame exist on the Ford design.

While the ADD and LOD brackets will work to reduce this rotational force, truly the only thing stopping it is the force of the hardware holding the brackets to the frame. The recommended torque from the Ford design was, if I recall correctly, 80-100 ft pounds? Don't quote me, but I recall it being substantial. But the only true way of stopping the rotation is a physical barrier - ie the underside mounts of Ford and Tricky's design. I also recall some after market bumpers having this feature in their design.

Long story short; TLDR;
Winch + no brackets = 1/10
Winch + brackets = 3/10
Winch + gusseted brackets = 6/10
Winch + brackets + undermount = 10/10 (Ford's actual design for the Everglades winch)

Great summary. So the LOD’s are a half effort and the only other tangible options are modifying them or Lobo’s for $500? Aside from going full bumper with someone like ARB that has thought of re-enforcement. Or the factory Warn that doesn’t have provisions for ACC and bumper sensors without yet further dicking around. I’m suddenly regretting my BUBC winch mount purchase that finally came back in stock. It was only a temporary solution until budget would allow for a proper bumper set but damn.

 

[MillerAndCheeto]

Great summary. So the LOD’s are a half effort and the only other tangible options are modifying them or Lobo’s for $500? Aside from going full bumper with someone like ARB that has thought of re-enforcement. Or the factory Warn that doesn’t have provisions for ACC and bumper sensors without yet further dicking around. I’m suddenly regretting my BUBC winch mount purchase that finally came back in stock. It was only a temporary solution until budget would allow for a proper bumper set but damn.

Yah that's exactly right - the LOD's by themselves are a bandaid fix - but definitely better than nothing!! Now this is a whopper of a thread to read:

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...rly-installed-rough-country-high-mount.70698/

But essentially one of the Bronco6G members found that during a heavy winch pull, without the brackets there is movement of the frame horns. Adding the LOD brackets helps GREATLY but if you were at full winch stall-out likely it would cause some rotation.

For me it's a risk tolerance I have to weigh. I have the LOD brackets with gussets added, drilled into the frame (as recommended) so there are 4 x Grade 8 bolts on each side holding the brackets onto the frame, and then 3 x Grade 8 bolts on each side holding bumper to the brackets.

The extra bolts added by drilling into the frame DO add more resistance to movement, 100%. I am ok with this in terms of my risk tolerance. From an OEM perspective, they would not be ok with any movement at all as this would just cause warranty claims, thus the underside supports in addition to all of the above. Even if you don't add the gussets, the extra bolts in the frame will add a great benefit.

 

[PEGB]

Yah that's exactly right - the LOD's by themselves are a bandaid fix - but definitely better than nothing!! Now this is a whopper of a thread to read:

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...rly-installed-rough-country-high-mount.70698/

But essentially one of the Bronco6G members found that during a heavy winch pull, without the brackets there is movement of the frame horns. Adding the LOD brackets helps GREATLY but if you were at full winch stall-out likely it would cause some rotation.

For me it's a risk tolerance I have to weigh. I have the LOD brackets with gussets added, drilled into the frame (as recommended) so there are 4 x Grade 8 bolts on each side holding the brackets onto the frame, and then 3 x Grade 8 bolts on each side holding bumper to the brackets.

The extra bolts added by drilling into the frame DO add more resistance to movement, 100%. I am ok with this in terms of my risk tolerance. From an OEM perspective, they would not be ok with any movement at all as this would just cause warranty claims, thus the underside supports in addition to all of the above. Even if you don't add the gussets, the extra bolts in the frame will add a great benefit.

I like your logic in this, but I just canceled the BUOR mount. Either I figure out how to get Tricky back into production or I just bite the bullet and get the ARB I want anyway. First world problems I guess.

 

[cyrus104]

Would love to get the Tricky back into production. It looks like a great option!

 

[Schumacher]

This is a user fail. Using a tow strap like a kinetic. I am not at all surprised the bumper failed.

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