Neutral Tow / Transmission Problem

[BigMeatsBronco]

Mine times out on acc after 20 minutes or so (don't remember the exact time). I know it does cause I like to take the top off and crank the tunes while I'm cleaning the garage, or doing yardwork (Bronco is a very expensive, but cool boombox). So there is another potential failure point...customer has the vehicle all set up to flat tow, but never keys it off before leaving, and the motorhome has to wait at a light for more than 7 seconds...xfer case shifts out of neutral...customer drives cross country w/no knowledge he is grinding his tranny to slag the whole way! While this would "technically" be user error...it's WAY too easy to make that mistake...there NEEDS to be better failsafe than that!

this scenario is most likely how the problem occurs.

Sponsored

 

[GDWSuperman]

If this is true, as it seems to be, it is Fords problem. It should be clearly stated in the owners manual that it requires a 12V supply, if true. I'm not sure I buy it. But something is clearly wrong, or we're all morons that can't follow simple directions. I would be fighting this - I have not seen any requirement published by Ford that states a 12V supply is required.

I agree. I have gone over and I’ve r the process and since the dashboard was singing at me that I was in tow enabled mode says I was in tow mode. That is all I have to go by. In order to peruse this I am going to have to try and find a way to test my theory to prove to t

Failsafe...that's exactly what needs to be added. There should be no circumstance the computer can take it out of neutral tow. That's why I'm headed back to Jeep - the manual shift transfer case can't go into gear without a person moving it. Dead battery - no problem. Jeep running - no problem. Jeep in ACC - no problem. Brakes on for twenty minutes - no problem.....see the trend? A manual transfer case is a thing of beauty for this use case.

I really like driving the Bronco, and it's way more comfortable. But I have had it for two and a half months, and it has been in the shop for a month. And Ford only covered 10 days of rental. And no one can tell me for sure why it self destructed, so I have zero confidence it won't happen again. Pretty happy I didn't go and buy all the accessories I wanted for it....or I'd be out another 4-5 grand.

I hear you! My friend got the Rubicon and is incredibly happy with it. He did realize you still need to charge your battery during tow haul. I just talked to the installer of my controller, not asking them to take responsibility and they stated that they are seeing the same issues with Chevy SUV. Said the electronics is giving them problems also. I wish everyone would work together on this. We want to have a vehicle and are willing to pay, but the responsibility is on the manufacturer to give us a working product. They say they engineered this perfectly, well we found a big problem!

 

[aknavy]

I agree. I have gone over and I’ve r the process and since the dashboard was singing at me that I was in tow enabled mode says I was in tow mode. That is all I have to go by. In order to peruse this I am going to have to try and find a way to test my theory to prove to t



I hear you! My friend got the Rubicon and is incredibly happy with it. He did realize you still need to charge your battery during tow haul. I just talked to the installer of my controller, not asking them to take responsibility and they stated that they are seeing the same issues with Chevy SUV. Said the electronics is giving them problems also. I wish everyone would work together on this. We want to have a vehicle and are willing to pay, but the responsibility is on the manufacturer to give us a working product. They say they engineered this perfectly, well we found a big problem!

I have towed both a JK and JL Rubicon for two years, never had an issue. Also didn't run a power wire, as the power draw is negligible. I only leave it connected for max of three days at a time. The JL is especially forgiving with the LED tail lights.

 

[Imaginary Friend]

This thread is an eye opener. Sorry to hear about what you guys are going through here.

While I've rarely towed any of my Wranglers, all this is another aspect making me question going from my JL Rubi to a Bronco. The whole KISS principle applies here, too much needless complexity.

Not to mention I prefer the ZF 8-speed trans in my Rubi to the 10-speed in my F150. The 10 is by far the quirkier of the two.

 

[aknavy]

This thread is an eye opener. Sorry to hear about what you guys are going through here.

While I've rarely towed any of my Wranglers, all this is another aspect making me question going from my JL Rubi to a Bronco. The whole KISS principle applies here, too much needless complexity.

Not to mention I prefer the ZF 8-speed trans in my Rubi to the 10-speed in my F150. The 10 is by far the quirkier of the two.

If not towing, it will probably be fine...unless you have an issue out on a trail and need to be towed home. Then neutral tow comes back into play. They also have the stupid electric parking brake. I believe the ABS sensors mess with differential lock, from reading other threads. I may be wrong, but that's the impression I got.

 

[vrtical]

I agree. I have gone over and I’ve r the process and since the dashboard was singing at me that I was in tow enabled mode says I was in tow mode. That is all I have to go by. In order to peruse this I am going to have to try and find a way to test my theory to prove to t



I hear you! My friend got the Rubicon and is incredibly happy with it. He did realize you still need to charge your battery during tow haul. I just talked to the installer of my controller, not asking them to take responsibility and they stated that they are seeing the same issues with Chevy SUV. Said the electronics is giving them problems also. I wish everyone would work together on this. We want to have a vehicle and are willing to pay, but the responsibility is on the manufacturer to give us a working product. They say they engineered this perfectly, well we found a big problem!

Ford can tell, it logs and has diagnostics. I dont think YOU need to prove it, Ford does.

 

[vrtical]

If not towing, it will probably be fine...unless you have an issue out on a trail and need to be towed home. Then neutral tow comes back into play. They also have the stupid electric parking brake. I believe the ABS sensors mess with differential lock, from reading other threads. I may be wrong, but that's the impression I got.

Its been known or those that go out enough, the Bronco gets into "stupid" modes sometimes and a battery reset on the trail fixes it, but if you dont know that, you might be screwed. The last time I was out, one of them was "stuck" in 4L, which obviously would be a nightmare to get home.

 

[Bmadda]

this scenario is most likely how the problem occurs.

And "technically" Ford can claim "user error" in that case...however it's just way too easy to make that mistake. I have started/shut off/then put back in accessory several times cause it's just too easy to push the button...sometimes my finger bounces. This could be solved very easily by adding a third input necessary to actuate a N-2H shift (which they DID on MT...it's the clutch!). And it's gotta be something only the driver can do from inside the vehicle, NOT the start button! Who uses the same button for start and self destruct? Not gonna buy a Ford spaceship when they make one!

 

[RAMTOWIT]

I also bought my Bronco for the purpose of Flat-Towing. I am wondering if anyone who has had these catastrophic failures also had the below software update performed by the dealer. I had the update done by my dealer in May 2023 (including the abs portion). I have only towed my Bronco twice both times under eight hours and haven't had any issues. Might be another piece of the puzzle to include.

I set up my 2022 2.7 using the Demco DUO brake controller (just fyi)


https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...ota-software-update-instructions.45983/page-9


Priority update 22-pu1010-mil-lt for 2021-2022 model year bronco vehicles is now available. Quality improvements include: improvements to neutral tow and ebb interaction, improvements to esc-off switch not reacting, improvement to mil ligh

You will know if you have the update because you will get some new warnings about the brakes.

 

[dgorsett]

I don't know how to set up a poll and know forum members find them annoying, but it would be interesting to see of those with failures: What engine, transmission, 4A or parttime, charge system or no and basically how many tow and how many failures.

 

[aknavy]

Dealer started to do paperwork on mine, so now some of the diagnosis is available....these are the diag codes it presented with. There are a couple more, but they are repeat issues/different codes. After the transmission was replaced, it shifted into 4x4 once, then the transfer case died. Interesting note - there are no serviceable parts in the transfer case.


Diagnostic trouble code P0707 is defined as Transmission Range Sensor “A” Circuit Low. This code triggers when either the transmission range sensor or neutral safety switch isn't sending a high enough voltage signal to the powertrain control module (PCM).

What does OBD-II fault code P0709 mean? The Transmission Range Sensor (also referred to as the PRNDL input and/or neutral safety switch) tells the transmission control module (TCM) and the engine control module (PCM) that the transmission is in park, reverse, neutral, drive, low, 2nd, 3rd etc.

What Does the P0715 Code Mean? Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0715 stands for Input/Turbine Speed Sensor “A” Circuit. To put it simply, this code is triggered when your vehicle's PCM detects an irregularity in the signal sent by the input speed sensor in the transmission.

The P0717 code stands for “Input/Turbine Speed Sensor “A” Circuit No Signal.” It's logged when the PCM detects the input sensor signal is missing. A malfunctioning input speed sensor and issues with the speed sensor circuit and PCM are some of the problems that could trigger the code.

Summary. The P0720 code indicates a problem with the output speed sensor, which doesn't function properly for a few reasons. These reasons may include the sensor itself and things like old transmission fluid, bad electrical wiring, or a PCM malfunction.

What Does P0722 Mean? The P0722 code stands for “output speed sensor no signal.” It means that the powertrain control module (PCM) is detecting that the transmission system's output speed sensor isn't sending sufficient information.

P0791 - OBD II Trouble Code. What does OBD-II fault code P0791 mean? The Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor tells the Transmission Control Module (TCM) how fast the intermediate shaft of the transmission is spinning so the correct gear can be engaged.

The P0793 code stands for “Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor 'A' Circuit No Signal.” It's triggered when the intermediate shaft speed sensor sends inaccurate data or is unable to send a signal to the transmission control module.

OBD2 Diagnostic Trouble Code P2745 means that Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor 'B' Circuit has been detected.

The ECM (Engine Control Module) in conjunction with the TCM (Transmission Control Module) may activate P2747 and associated codes (P2745, P2746, P2748) when they monitor a fault within the intermediate shaft speed sensor or it's circuits.

 

[GDWSuperman]

I don't know how to set up a poll and know forum members find them annoying, but it would be interesting to see of those with failures: What engine, transmission, 4A or parttime, charge system or no and basically how many tow and how many failures.

I think that is a great idea. This thing is growing and I think the survey would help us understand if it is a fix or there is a problem out there and then maybe we can get Ford to get this resolved. I know the last statement is a wish!!! I will reach out to the admin of this and see if they would help with this. Thanks for the idea.

Dealer started to do paperwork on mine, so now some of the diagnosis is available....these are the diag codes it presented with. There are a couple more, but they are repeat issues/different codes. After the transmission was replaced, it shifted into 4x4 once, then the transfer case died. Interesting note - there are no serviceable parts in the transfer case.


Diagnostic trouble code P0707 is defined as Transmission Range Sensor “A” Circuit Low. This code triggers when either the transmission range sensor or neutral safety switch isn't sending a high enough voltage signal to the powertrain control module (PCM).

What does OBD-II fault code P0709 mean? The Transmission Range Sensor (also referred to as the PRNDL input and/or neutral safety switch) tells the transmission control module (TCM) and the engine control module (PCM) that the transmission is in park, reverse, neutral, drive, low, 2nd, 3rd etc.

What Does the P0715 Code Mean? Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0715 stands for Input/Turbine Speed Sensor “A” Circuit. To put it simply, this code is triggered when your vehicle's PCM detects an irregularity in the signal sent by the input speed sensor in the transmission.

The P0717 code stands for “Input/Turbine Speed Sensor “A” Circuit No Signal.” It's logged when the PCM detects the input sensor signal is missing. A malfunctioning input speed sensor and issues with the speed sensor circuit and PCM are some of the problems that could trigger the code.

Summary. The P0720 code indicates a problem with the output speed sensor, which doesn't function properly for a few reasons. These reasons may include the sensor itself and things like old transmission fluid, bad electrical wiring, or a PCM malfunction.

What Does P0722 Mean? The P0722 code stands for “output speed sensor no signal.” It means that the powertrain control module (PCM) is detecting that the transmission system's output speed sensor isn't sending sufficient information.

P0791 - OBD II Trouble Code. What does OBD-II fault code P0791 mean? The Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor tells the Transmission Control Module (TCM) how fast the intermediate shaft of the transmission is spinning so the correct gear can be engaged.

The P0793 code stands for “Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor 'A' Circuit No Signal.” It's triggered when the intermediate shaft speed sensor sends inaccurate data or is unable to send a signal to the transmission control module.

OBD2 Diagnostic Trouble Code P2745 means that Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor 'B' Circuit has been detected.

The ECM (Engine Control Module) in conjunction with the TCM (Transmission Control Module) may activate P2747 and associated codes (P2745, P2746, P2748) when they monitor a fault within the intermediate shaft speed sensor or it's circuits.

Great information. So you know in mine it was P0771 and P0792 ( I believe). P0771 is P0771: Shift Solenoid ‘E’ Performance or Stuck Off OBD-II Trouble Code

Dealer started to do paperwork on mine, so now some of the diagnosis is available....these are the diag codes it presented with. There are a couple more, but they are repeat issues/different codes. After the transmission was replaced, it shifted into 4x4 once, then the transfer case died. Interesting note - there are no serviceable parts in the transfer case.


Diagnostic trouble code P0707 is defined as Transmission Range Sensor “A” Circuit Low. This code triggers when either the transmission range sensor or neutral safety switch isn't sending a high enough voltage signal to the powertrain control module (PCM).

What does OBD-II fault code P0709 mean? The Transmission Range Sensor (also referred to as the PRNDL input and/or neutral safety switch) tells the transmission control module (TCM) and the engine control module (PCM) that the transmission is in park, reverse, neutral, drive, low, 2nd, 3rd etc.

What Does the P0715 Code Mean? Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0715 stands for Input/Turbine Speed Sensor “A” Circuit. To put it simply, this code is triggered when your vehicle's PCM detects an irregularity in the signal sent by the input speed sensor in the transmission.

The P0717 code stands for “Input/Turbine Speed Sensor “A” Circuit No Signal.” It's logged when the PCM detects the input sensor signal is missing. A malfunctioning input speed sensor and issues with the speed sensor circuit and PCM are some of the problems that could trigger the code.

Summary. The P0720 code indicates a problem with the output speed sensor, which doesn't function properly for a few reasons. These reasons may include the sensor itself and things like old transmission fluid, bad electrical wiring, or a PCM malfunction.

What Does P0722 Mean? The P0722 code stands for “output speed sensor no signal.” It means that the powertrain control module (PCM) is detecting that the transmission system's output speed sensor isn't sending sufficient information.

P0791 - OBD II Trouble Code. What does OBD-II fault code P0791 mean? The Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor tells the Transmission Control Module (TCM) how fast the intermediate shaft of the transmission is spinning so the correct gear can be engaged.

The P0793 code stands for “Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor 'A' Circuit No Signal.” It's triggered when the intermediate shaft speed sensor sends inaccurate data or is unable to send a signal to the transmission control module.

OBD2 Diagnostic Trouble Code P2745 means that Intermediate Shaft Speed Sensor 'B' Circuit has been detected.

The ECM (Engine Control Module) in conjunction with the TCM (Transmission Control Module) may activate P2747 and associated codes (P2745, P2746, P2748) when they monitor a fault within the intermediate shaft speed sensor or it's circuits.

Thank you for this information. My code was P0771: Shift Solenoid ‘E’ Performance or Stuck Off OBD-II Trouble Code and I believe P0792 shaft speed isn't increasing or if the signal that is received form the intermediate shaft speed sensor is haphazard or not in range prescribed by the manufacturer, so we were hoping the Solomon’s was just stuck. And we were wrong. I just got off the phone with the Service Writer and said they will have a complete break down of everything at the end. So far they haven’t said anything about the transfer case. I will let you know what the final word is when I get it.

 

[aknavy]

Thank you for this information. My code was P0771: Shift Solenoid ‘E’ Performance or Stuck Off OBD-II Trouble Code and I believe P0792 shaft speed isn't increasing or if the signal that is received form the intermediate shaft speed sensor is haphazard or not in range prescribed by the manufacturer, so we were hoping the Solomon’s was just stuck. And we were wrong. I just got off the phone with the Service Writer and said they will have a complete break down of everything at the end. So far they haven’t said anything about the transfer case. I will let you know what the final word is when I get it.

My transfer case wasn't discovered until after the transmission was replaced.

 

[GDWSuperman]

My transfer case wasn't discovered until after the transmission was replaced.

Great! I will call them now and ask them to look and see. Tranny is due in tomorrow.

 

[BigMeatsBronco]

I predict a class action suit here...Fords lack of response is a disgrace to the brand.

maybe I'll get extra rental car coverage on my extended warrantees, then go get ready do flat tow job... after videoing my favorite stealership showing me the "proper" way of settng up flat tow....videoing my towing and the 7+ seconds I sit with the brakes on at the stop sign while the system fails. Then Ill drag the damaged/grenaded transmission ridden truck back to the dealership and videotape their reaction. It'd be a good chance for my video to go viral I've always been looking for one of those anyway and Ford would reap the rewards of having to replace every single one of these that fails. And reimburse people for rental cars and Towing/ vacation Adventures That Failed.

Sponsored