4A issues. ford says this is normal?

[adam1991]

just curious, is there some ford documentation that states what you just said above?

because when I was at the offrodeo, I asked that question and the answer was that other than lower gas mileage, there is no downside to staying in 4A all the time.

No, there is zero documentation that states what he just said. To the contrary, not only does Ford documentation say there's no problem leaving it in 4A, Ford engineers have come out and said that it's perfectly fine to run it in 4A for the life of the vehicle.

What you're seeing are forum keyboard engineers whose expressing their feelings. And as we all know, feelings trump facts, right?

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[adam1991]

I had to post this:



especially this comment:

Please be advised… despite the total absence of any evidence from Ford or 3rd party research of quality and assurance it may be incredibly dangerous to operate the vehicle in Eco mode. The damage to the engine could happen and may be permanent. Details cannot be found anywhere on the internet. But it’s something to worry about. Best to leave the vehicle parked in a safe place at all times.

 

[HotLap]

Without regard for how Ford has decided to classify 4A as OK for all conditions, it really shouldn't be used on exclusively dry surfaces. If you're concerned about slip, traction control is always running in the background under normal driving and will take care of most of the reasons for a slip. It has been my understanding since 4A was introduced, the intended use was mainly for snowy/icy/slippery road conditions, as a more desirable option to running 4x4 on highway conditions.

I have not bothered looking at the WSM to see exactly what conditions are required to activate the 4A strategy but right angle-ish turns where the outside wheels are moving much faster than the inside, tire circumference variations and the obvious slick conditions are usually enough to do it. Feel free to argue with me but I see no reason to run 4A on dry pavement under "normal" conditions. There are too many variables that can cause it to engage when not needed and put undue stress on the CVs and other part time components. There is absolutely no benefit to use it for daily driving. Like I said, it's what you use when you might need 4x4 assist but driving conditions are outside of the 4x4 limits (highway speeds).

There's a 90%+ chance that most unintended 4A activations fall within designed operating parameters. The few that fall outside are due to diagnosable issues like tire size or a speed sensor.

Agree with you Flip that it’s generally not needed on dry pavement, but Ford does state in the OM, (at least in my Raptor’s OM and thought the Bronco OM as well), that it’s OK to operate on dry pavement? I do wish it wouldn’t always engage when selecting Sport mode, I have unselect it every time.

 

[flip]

Agree with you Flip that it’s generally not needed on dry pavement, but Ford does state in the OM, (at least in my Raptor’s OM and thought the Bronco OM as well), that it’s OK to operate on dry pavement? I do wish it wouldn’t always engage when selecting Sport mode, I have unselect it every time.

I completely understand Ford says it's OK and it should be assumed this is an accurate assertion. The issue I take is, again IMO, they aren't giving the dealers and techs a more technical explanation of the parameters of the conditions/data that system uses to determine when it comes on, what components are involved and how to discriminate between "normal" operation and "characteristic".

I've been out of the shop but still manage our fixed ops and see all the the dumb stuff we run into on a daily basis. @Ducati1098 can probably attest that many of the things we see in the shop have an issue but never throw a code to aid in diagnostics. Sometimes you have codes you chase through a specific pinpoint test and it leads you to clearing codes and returning to the customer. My SIL's '22 Corsair has not been getting OTA updates since she purchased it. All of her in vehicle and app settings are configured to do auto updates. It will update when connected to the wi-fi at the dealership but not via cell. A bunch of "junk" codes in the VHR that have nothing to do with the modem but there were some later software updates for various modules that may or may not have anything to do with the OTAs. Had my tech update all the modules, cross fingers that one may "fix" the issue but the point is there is a problem, we don't have a way to determine what it is or how to repair due to the limited diagnostic info Ford puts out.

This is where my skepticism comes into play with 4A daily use and them claiming it's OK. Until I have additional information on how this works in the Bronco, I have to assume it's similar to past 4A strategies. We get calls from customers who errantly engage 4A who are reporting issues like stiff steering, tire scrub, etc. The advisors can usually run through some checks where it's discovered the 4A was on, customer turns it off and everything is back to normal. When Ford gives us more specific info and data, I recommend to customers to not use 4A for every day driving or normal surface conditions.

Again, Ford says it's designed for it, owners are free to use this mode as such, I'm not taking Ford's word for it without considerably more information. My ego is not fragile enough to admit an error after sufficient data to support the claim. The data in this case isn't sufficient to support their claim or mine which is why I default to a more conservative position. It's better to err on the safer side of a recommendation than to tell people, just send it, and have to deal with the, "you said it was OK" or "ever since....".

 

[Fordified1]

I completely understand Ford says it's OK and it should be assumed this is an accurate assertion. The issue I take is, again IMO, they aren't giving the dealers and techs a more technical explanation of the parameters of the conditions/data that system uses to determine when it comes on, what components are involved and how to discriminate between "normal" operation and "characteristic".

I've been out of the shop but still manage our fixed ops and see all the the dumb stuff we run into on a daily basis. @Ducati1098 can probably attest that many of the things we see in the shop have an issue but never throw a code to aid in diagnostics. Sometimes you have codes you chase through a specific pinpoint test and it leads you to clearing codes and returning to the customer. My SIL's '22 Corsair has not been getting OTA updates since she purchased it. All of her in vehicle and app settings are configured to do auto updates. It will update when connected to the wi-fi at the dealership but not via cell. A bunch of "junk" codes in the VHR that have nothing to do with the modem but there were some later software updates for various modules that may or may not have anything to do with the OTAs. Had my tech update all the modules, cross fingers that one may "fix" the issue but the point is there is a problem, we don't have a way to determine what it is or how to repair due to the limited diagnostic info Ford puts out.

This is where my skepticism comes into play with 4A daily use and them claiming it's OK. Until I have additional information on how this works in the Bronco, I have to assume it's similar to past 4A strategies. We get calls from customers who errantly engage 4A who are reporting issues like stiff steering, tire scrub, etc. The advisors can usually run through some checks where it's discovered the 4A was on, customer turns it off and everything is back to normal. When Ford gives us more specific info and data, I recommend to customers to not use 4A for every day driving or normal surface conditions.

Again, Ford says it's designed for it, owners are free to use this mode as such, I'm not taking Ford's word for it without considerably more information. My ego is not fragile enough to admit an error after sufficient data to support the claim. The data in this case isn't sufficient to support their claim or mine which is why I default to a more conservative position. It's better to err on the safer side of a recommendation than to tell people, just send it, and have to deal with the, "you said it was OK" or "ever since....".

Ford only cares that it lasts 100k miles, which it’s probably engineered to do even if it’s in 4A all the time. We keep our vehicles well past 200k though. Only using 4A when necessary vs all the time may make the difference as to the drivetrain lasting 150k miles vs 300k. But we aren’t the average consumer. Ford designed it so the average consumer should feel comfortable leaving it in 4A all the time, as they’ll probably trade it off before the drivelines wear out or at least it will be out of warranty which is all Ford cares about.

 

[adam1991]

This is where my skepticism comes into play with 4A daily use and them claiming it's OK. Until I have additional information on how this works in the Bronco, I have to assume it's similar to past 4A strategies. We get calls from customers who errantly engage 4A

you're defining their behavior as "errant"--but they're doing what Ford tells them is OK to do.

You're back to you defining the behavior as problematic--despite, as you admit, you not knowing anything about it.

The advisors can usually run through some checks where it's discovered the 4A was on, customer turns it off and everything is back to normal.

And you take that surface information and declare the engaging of 4A to be "errant"--contradicting Ford's customer facing documentation that turning this on is OK.

"Doctor doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Don't do that. And anyway, you shouldn't want to do that."

What do your customers think of you when they read that Ford says it's OK but you're telling them "Ford is wrong"? Do you continue with that to say "Ford is wrong, but I have no direct information telling me why, it's just my imagination"?

Do you consider that their vehicle is broken when it misbehaves according to how Ford documents the behavior? Or do you just throw up your hands and say "Ford won't tell us how to fix it, so stop using the feature because clearly it doesn't work and clearly it was never intended to work the way they documented it"?

Do you TELL the customer "don't pay any attention to the documentation, that's not supposed to work"? What does the customer say to that?

I've worked for over 30 years in an environment not unlike car dealerships. Most techs don't know something not because the manufacturer didn't document it; usually it's a lack of professionalism and just generally "not good at his job". I've seen long time techs refuse to read the documentation. I see a great number of techs without any good troubleshooting skills. I've also seen great techs with superb skills who take the time to understand the theory of operation of the system, but those are few and far between.

And yes, the bad techs do what you say: "I don't know what's supposed to happen, so I can't troubleshoot it without a code". Or "huh, it doesn't sound to me like it's supposed to do what you're saying"--never mind that it's documented clearly to the customer.

There's also laziness--the tech just doesn't want to spend the time to track something down. He's just not the type to want to dig in and figure it out.

You complain that "Ford doesn't explain it to us." So make them. Keep after them. Frankly, I'm sure Ford does explain it, but what do I know. Anyway, your answer to this is, instead of chasing after Ford to solve that problem, is to say to the customer "so don't use it, then we won't be stuck with your service problem that we can't figure out how to handle". And you wonder why people have a bad opinion of car dealerships.

The data in this case isn't sufficient to support their claim or mine which is why I default to a more conservative position. It's better to err on the safer side of a recommendation than to tell people, just send it, and have to deal with the, "you said it was OK" or "ever since....".

What data are you talking about? You have all of Ford's data?

"You said it was OK" is not the issue. You're the franchised dealership; FORD said it was OK, and that's all that matters. You contradicting that tells me volumes about whether or not I can trust you.

 

[Ducati1098]

I completely understand Ford says it's OK and it should be assumed this is an accurate assertion. The issue I take is, again IMO, they aren't giving the dealers and techs a more technical explanation of the parameters of the conditions/data that system uses to determine when it comes on, what components are involved and how to discriminate between "normal" operation and "characteristic".

Completely agree with this. There certainly isn't enough information or data sometimes to know what is normal. Even a lot of pinpoint tests will lead to a ridiculous conclusion of "compare to known good part/vehicle". While this isn't always possible or sometimes may not even help, in this case I believe it would and how it would need to be either verified as a concern or considered normal.

Just purely basing it off driving my own Bronco and multiple posts on here about people complaining about the same thing, binding during low speed turns, a lot of these threads dealers have either replaced the transfer case or the AWD module and the problem has gone away.
Without having the vehicle in my possession to verify or even test, to me this is a pretty strong sign that the OPs concern should not be happening.

I've worked for over 30 years in an environment not unlike car dealerships. Most techs don't know something not because the manufacturer didn't document it; usually it's a lack of professionalism and just generally "not good at his job". I've seen long time techs refuse to read the documentation. I see a great number of techs without any good troubleshooting skills. I've also seen great techs with superb skills who take the time to understand the theory of operation of the system, but those are few and far between.

This is such an ignorant comment from someone who has probably never worked as a dealer technician lol
Just because you work in an "environment not unlike car dealerships" doesn't mean you know shit about working as an actual technician in a dealership.
Thinking you know what a job is supposed to entail, doesn't mean you have any idea of how to do it or what it actually involves.

That's like me, not having any idea what you do for a living, throwing up a blanket statement saying the majority of the people doing your job are absolutely terrible at it and just don't care about doing quality work.

Literally just laughable and pathetic.

While there may be some technicians (just like any other job) that don't care or don't take pride in their work, you're wrong to just blatantly assume that's the majority.

 

[adam1991]

This is such an ignorant comment from someone who has probably never worked as a dealer technician

Not an ignorant comment at all. I've worked with your counterparts in another industry for over 30 years; nice guys, but all too few of them are true professionals, and are content just to go to work and do something, anything.

And they do what flip does: when they see something they don't understand, rather than dig into it and understand it they just tell the customer "well, it's not supposed to do what you think" and they ignore it when the customer brings up documentation that says contradicts that.

I know this because in my industry, I'm the guy that does the deep dive and understands what the system does and how it does it, and how to use it to benefit the customer. Often times I'm the one wrestling with the techs who insist on denying that what I say is true--even though we both work for the same organization and have access to the same documentation. All I want is for the techs to make the system function as designed, but instead what I end up doing is trying--and sometimes failing--to SELL the techs on believing that what I say is how it's supposed to work, and here's the documentation. I shouldn't have to sell the techs on ANYTHING. The customer needs a functioning system, and your job is to make it function per the documentation. That you don't read the documentation, or don't ask for help if you don't understand it, is a problem. The information is all there.

The head-in-sand philosophy is not uncommon at the level of a technician.

What do YOU say when flip tells the customer, ""don't pay any attention to the documentation, that's not supposed to work"?

(I knew a superb auto dealer tech years ago. I knew I could blindly trust him. One of his colleagues, Donnie, was the stereotypical ripoff artist--the poster boy for dealership service thievery--who gives you guys a horrible name. And management let him do that, despite knowing what he was doing. You can't tell me this never happens and that people like that don't exist.)

 

[andersman02]

This is getting pretty OC-
Adam- Ford recommends 150k for diff and tranny fluid change- would you wait that long?

OP- have you tried replicating that in slippery mode on dry pavement? Have you Tried replicating it in sport mode?

 

[flip]

you're defining their behavior as "errant"--but they're doing what Ford tells them is OK to do.

You're back to you defining the behavior as problematic--despite, as you admit, you not knowing anything about it.


And you take that surface information and declare the engaging of 4A to be "errant"--contradicting Ford's customer facing documentation that turning this on is OK.

"Doctor doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Don't do that. And anyway, you shouldn't want to do that."

What do your customers think of you when they read that Ford says it's OK but you're telling them "Ford is wrong"? Do you continue with that to say "Ford is wrong, but I have no direct information telling me why, it's just my imagination"?

Do you consider that their vehicle is broken when it misbehaves according to how Ford documents the behavior? Or do you just throw up your hands and say "Ford won't tell us how to fix it, so stop using the feature because clearly it doesn't work and clearly it was never intended to work the way they documented it"?

Do you TELL the customer "don't pay any attention to the documentation, that's not supposed to work"? What does the customer say to that?

I've worked for over 30 years in an environment not unlike car dealerships. Most techs don't know something not because the manufacturer didn't document it; usually it's a lack of professionalism and just generally "not good at his job". I've seen long time techs refuse to read the documentation. I see a great number of techs without any good troubleshooting skills. I've also seen great techs with superb skills who take the time to understand the theory of operation of the system, but those are few and far between.

And yes, the bad techs do what you say: "I don't know what's supposed to happen, so I can't troubleshoot it without a code". Or "huh, it doesn't sound to me like it's supposed to do what you're saying"--never mind that it's documented clearly to the customer.

There's also laziness--the tech just doesn't want to spend the time to track something down. He's just not the type to want to dig in and figure it out.

You complain that "Ford doesn't explain it to us." So make them. Keep after them. Frankly, I'm sure Ford does explain it, but what do I know. Anyway, your answer to this is, instead of chasing after Ford to solve that problem, is to say to the customer "so don't use it, then we won't be stuck with your service problem that we can't figure out how to handle". And you wonder why people have a bad opinion of car dealerships.


What data are you talking about? You have all of Ford's data?

"You said it was OK" is not the issue. You're the franchised dealership; FORD said it was OK, and that's all that matters. You contradicting that tells me volumes about whether or not I can trust you.

Are you always this argumentative? Unless you are in this business, whatever your comparing it to, is not equal.

"Errant" meaning they activated the feature by mistake, noticed an issue and was unaware it was on.

It's obvious that you have little to no understanding of the information Ford does and doesn't provide to us to aid in diagnosing and repairing vehicles nor the layers of complexity. Maybe if you abandon the idea that everything is black or white, yes or no and consider there's a grey area where not everything Ford claims is actually how it is, some of the things I'm bringing up would make more sense. I've been doing this long enough to have seen patterns both with product and use. I'm not here to change your mind as much as to provide more dimension to a product feature that we've seen to be misunderstood and misused. YMMV

My complaint with Ford and information has to do with introducing multiplexed, highly controlled electro-mechanical systems, without specific field, PID, range data to reference. For example: When in 4A, does tire circumference or tire revolution differential between all 4 on the ground cause unintended activation? At what wheel speed sensor input compared to transmission output speed enable or disable 4A? Does the yaw sensor have any influence on 4A activation? What at what speed or steering angle sensor reading enable or disable 4A?

For your own benefit and sanity please, don't trust me, don't listen to me and for the good of your blood pressure, think seriously about putting me on your ignore list. I've had interactions over the years with people like have made the same statements and taken the same positions you have. Reality and practice it's much more nuanced than you seem to want to believe. Not going to change your mind nor are your going to change mine. One suggestion I have though is to quit shitting on the techs that are fixing these things. There has been a mass exodus of techs from this business for a myriad of issues with respect as one of the biggies. Calling these folks names, stupid, lazy or dismissing their trade is extremely narrowminded and counterproductive.

 

[BigMeatsBronco]

I have 2 words...Traction control.

The slippery mode DOES have a different algorithm than the other modes for determining "slip". In fact, I'll venture to say that bit is the most sensitive mode to use, It notices slip more than the other modes. With my BIG MEATS and slow sharp turns ( in slippery mode) I can FEEL AND HEAR the Traction control trying to "figure out" why the tires are spinning at completely different speeds. It's sounds and feels similar to TTA being active.

I have ALOT of personal testing with all the modes...for example I'll select a mode and then send it into a loose gravel corner WAY HARDER than I could ever keep contoll of, without the computer assisting, and to my complete amazement ( and relief) the Traction control has the ability to manage a sideways full slide, generating G forces that would NEVER be possible w/o Traction/stability controll. 99% will never understand how well this works because they don't trust the system well enough to actually test it!

While testing at way to high of speeds on loose gravel, my dash lights up.with this...yep the brakes have temperature sensors ( or an algorithm to calculate heat)


Additionally, I noticed the sport mode and slippery mode have different levels of 'assistance'...especially when accelerating out of the slippery corner while in full drift.

 

[adam1991]

Are you always this argumentative?

If by "argumentative" you mean calling you out when you say stuff like this? Sure.

"I turned it on by accident". "Oh, well then, don't do that because it's not meant to be used on dry pavement." Yeah, I will be "argumentative" when you say that.

My complaint with Ford and information has to do with introducing multiplexed, highly controlled electro-mechanical systems, without specific field, PID, range data to reference.

Then deal with Ford and demand the information. Recognize the customer's standing on "why does Ford say one thing but you say another?" Don't just pass the problem on down to the customer, who sees Ford's documentation that directly contradicts what you say.

I've had interactions over the years with people like have made the same statements and taken the same positions you have.

Hmmmmm. Fascinating. You might want to ponder that.

I'll worry about my own blood pressure. You might want to consider actually running your business, instead of spending your time here distributing your "feelings" about how things work and complaining that "Ford isn't giving me what I need".

 

[BigMeatsBronco]

If by "argumentative" you mean calling you out when you say stuff like this? Sure.

"I turned it on by accident". "Oh, well then, don't do that because it's not meant to be used on dry pavement." Yeah, I will be "argumentative" when you say that.


Then deal with Ford and demand the information. Recognize the customer's standing on "why does Ford say one thing but you say another?" Don't just pass the problem on down to the customer, who sees Ford's documentation that directly contradicts what you say.


Hmmmmm. Fascinating. You might want to ponder that.

I'll worry about my own blood pressure. You might want to consider actually running your business, instead of spending your time here distributing your "feelings" about how things work and complaining that "Ford isn't giving me what I need".

Doods only been signed up for a tad over 1 month and now he's the AUTHORITY. ROFL

Instead of arguing with the best well-known members on here maybe you go get in yer new Bronco and get some seat time...

 

[broncobase1]

just curious, is there some ford documentation that states what you just said above?

because when I was at the offrodeo, I asked that question and the answer was that other than lower gas mileage, there is no downside to staying in 4A all the time.

And there is this from another B6G thread: https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/updated-check-4x4-warning-alert-4a.32371/post-1083077

Of course there is a downside. The 4A transfer case contains clutch packs to route torque to the front as needed, but its not a true AWD system. There is almost certainly wear and tear that doesn't occur when in straight 2H. If there is a difference in tire diameter even slight it will fool the system also a problem for AWD. It is unlikly 4A was engineered for full time use on dry pavement. There is no point, why would anyone want to use it on dry pavement? And yes this is only my opinion, feel free ti disagree.

 

[flip]

If by "argumentative" you mean calling you out when you say stuff like this? Sure.

"I turned it on by accident". "Oh, well then, don't do that because it's not meant to be used on dry pavement." Yeah, I will be "argumentative" when you say that.


Then deal with Ford and demand the information. Recognize the customer's standing on "why does Ford say one thing but you say another?" Don't just pass the problem on down to the customer, who sees Ford's documentation that directly contradicts what you say.


Hmmmmm. Fascinating. You might want to ponder that.

I'll worry about my own blood pressure. You might want to consider actually running your business, instead of spending your time here distributing your "feelings" about how things work and complaining that "Ford isn't giving me what I need".

LOL is all I've got left for you my friend. I don't know where your knowledge about the car repair business and workings of Ford Motor Company came from, rest assured, it's not correct. You've said enough for me to know, you don't know and are just trying to argue points you can't support. I've already said, I don't have all of the data needed to say definitively if what Ford is claiming (advertising) is correct when I have seen real world examples of Ford's 4A systems not functioning as advertised with no other underlying issues. Just my opinion based on all of the data I have available both published and historical. I could easily provide numerous examples of things Ford has put out that are not correct or don't operate as intended and you would probably find a way to argue that it's the dealer's fault, not Ford's for poor design or execution.

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