Need a battery recommendation.

[TruckCamper]

Come on guys! If you are going to make statements in here, please base them on facts. Here is a quick comparison of an AGM in OEM Bronco sizing to both a diesel truck starting lithium and a lithium marketed for auto use. Which one do you think will run a winch faster/longer? Which will be the worst?

Answer is Lithium are not designed for winch loads. They can't take the sustained amp draw that an AGM battery can.

None of these lithium batteries have a listed continuous amp draw rating. Meaning they can take short power burst for seconds not minutes. I'll venture to guess the BMS will cut power after ~30 seconds to protect the battery. Who wants to test it?

Also... The battery you mentioned:
https://lithiumhub.com/product/ioni...o4-car-post-starter-heater-battery-bluetooth/
Is NOT the same as AGM. It's only 40AH. Meaning the if it could take a winch at full 600amp load the battery would be dead (to zero) in under 4 minutes.

Interstate AGM H7 @ Costco is listed at 80AH. Yes, for longevity it's ideal to not discharge past 50%... However, you can discharge further and it will take the continuous winch amp draw till dead (no BMS to cut off) for nearly twice as long.

I'd love to go lithium. We have a 150AH RedArc lithum in our Raptor for the 2,000w inverter that charges off the alternator and roof mounted 200w solar. Our travel trailer has 600AH lithium with 1,200w solar and generator backup.

Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'd love to see a full continuous 600amp draw on any of these lithium batteries for even 60 seconds...

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[Brian_B]

Answer is Lithium are not designed for winch loads. They can't take the sustained amp draw that an AGM battery can.

I don't believe you.

 

[Brian_B]

I don't believe you.

And here is why

I'll give you that "specific" Lithium batteries may be unsuitable. But you are making the generic blanket assumption that it applies to all. Details matter, and you are glossing over a lot.

Lithium has a ~much~ lower internal resistance than AGM or Lead Acid. A lithium cell will run rings around a lead-based battery all day long -- ASSUMING the internals are built to handle it. That's where details matter.

If you take a bunch of lithium 18650s and solder them together with #20 wire - well then, of course it's gonna fail on a continuous high amp draw. But if you build an automotive battery right, a lithium battery will smoke a lead acid all day long - more cycles, more consistent voltage while discharging, faster charges, and higher/faster amp discharges. There is a huge difference between an "Automotive" battery and something like a Milwaukee M18.

AH has a little bit to do with it - given that a lithium cell is 3.6V, you string a bunch in series to get (close to) 12V, then you stack those in parallel to get your AH capacity (depending on internal construction of the lithium cell). More stacks in parallel, more amps you can support going out (again ASSUMING it's constructed to do so, Anitgravity was pretty clear that higher AH rated batteries had higher surge amp limits because of this).

Lead Acid though, you get about 2.0V per cell, and to get capacity, they just physically make the cells bigger... so you get whatever internal resistance all the lead terminals and plates will give you, really no matter how many AH you purchase.

If you made a lead acid battery with poor terminals and weak lead plates (and those exist, go look at something like a SLA 12400 - 40AH, but meant to power something like a scooter, not a winch or starter) -- then it would be the same thing you are assuming ALL lithium batteries are.

I'll give you that Lithium has drawbacks - but amp draw DEFINITELY is not one of them. I've got a set of lithium batteries at work that will do 2800A for an hour straight. They are pretty large and industrial, not automotive batteries - but again, it all has to do with construction, not the chemistry.

And I know for a fact that I've winched with my Antigravity. No, not for 10 minutes straight, because that's absolutely retarded (100' of line, you can't use all of it anyway, and at 30'/min spool speed... what the hell are you trying to winch anyway?) , but I never hit the BMS cutout on the winch - probably because the alternator can recharge it almost as fast as you can discharge it with the winch, if you actually stop to consider duty cycling and heat on the winch.

 

[TruckCamper]

And I know for a fact that I've winched with my Antigravity. No, not for 10 minutes straight, because that's absolutely retarded (100' of line, you can't use all of it anyway, and at 30'/min spool speed... what the hell are you trying to winch anyway?) , but I never hit the BMS cutout on the winch - probably because the alternator can recharge it almost as fast as you can discharge it with the winch, if you actually stop to consider duty cycling and heat on the winch.

You are right. I have no doubt a lithium battery could be built for winch duty. Point is the batteries in this thread are NOT. And there are many compromises: price, capacity, charging issues, cold weather... Not a simple "this is the best upgrade for you!" AGM batteries are the better option at this point for integration and heavy amp draws. For what is available and reasonable.

Now, you can go about building your perfect lithium battery to change the world... and prove me wrong.

 

[userdude]

Accurate. But you need to use Rain-X AGM wiper fluid to prevent the windshield from swelling.

Spread that shit THICK.

 

[5GENIDN]

Now, you can go about building your perfect lithium battery to change the world...

That right there... that comment strongly suggests a given bias not based on science but on political views.

You have made some good points and have helped instigate a further exploration of the nuances of the different battery types....

BUT this comment calls everything you have said into question as to the purpose of said comments.

Just an FYI...

 

[Brian_B]

Now, you can go about building your perfect lithium battery to change the world... and prove me wrong.

I will admit my Antigravity experiment failed - I had two batteries swell; the second after only 2 weeks of normal driving. They are still sitting out in my back yard in a place where, if they do decide to light off, hopefully won't catch half the state on fire. Hard to find a spot that will recycle anything bigger than a power tool battery around here.

But I had ~none~ of the issues you mention. In fact, the exact opposite - the Antigravity was great at the one thing you said it should fail on.

I suspect the engine bay just gets too hot for lithium, but I can't prove that in any way. Going slow the engine temps all stay ok, but under the hood turns into a pressure cooker as the engine strategy turns the fans off entirely at times, and you aren't going fast enough to move a lot of air.

So yeah, Lithium does have some drawbacks, some are significant Not sure they will get solved for the Bronco, at least without relocating the battery. So your conclusion is, more or less, correct. But your facts in getting there are just not based on any sort of reality.

 

[Oilbrnr]

Lithium, in current drop-in form for underhood use, is not there boys. That battery touted by some poster above ^ in this thread had an operating ambient temp range of what -10 to 140*

My underhood temp in the summer here without the engine ever running will exceed that. And people wonder while they swell after a couple years? Really?

As to winching or high current continuous loads, as @TruckCamper eluded to above, it isn’t that lithium is unable to, it is the way these drop-ins are constructed internally.

 

[evofxdwg]

Answer is Lithium are not designed for winch loads. They can't take the sustained amp draw that an AGM battery can.

None of these lithium batteries have a listed continuous amp draw rating. Meaning they can take short power burst for seconds not minutes. I'll venture to guess the BMS will cut power after ~30 seconds to protect the battery. Who wants to test it?

Also... The battery you mentioned:
https://lithiumhub.com/product/ioni...o4-car-post-starter-heater-battery-bluetooth/
Is NOT the same as AGM. It's only 40AH. Meaning the if it could take a winch at full 600amp load the battery would be dead (to zero) in under 4 minutes.

Interstate AGM H7 @ Costco is listed at 80AH. Yes, for longevity it's ideal to not discharge past 50%... However, you can discharge further and it will take the continuous winch amp draw till dead (no BMS to cut off) for nearly twice as long.

I'd love to go lithium. We have a 150AH RedArc lithum in our Raptor for the 2,000w inverter that charges off the alternator and roof mounted 200w solar. Our travel trailer has 600AH lithium with 1,200w solar and generator backup.

Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'd love to see a full continuous 600amp draw on any of these lithium batteries for even 60 seconds...

Id love to see a test too. I bet you would be surprised as long as the test is with a lithium STARTER battery. The BMS in them is certainly different than the more common lithium batteries rated at 100A continuous or 200-300A short term. I quoted the mfr CCA and peak amps for a typical lead acid and the Ionic lithium start batteries-did you read them? The battery/bms doesn't care if it is a starter or a winch. And if I was going to run a winch with one of these, I would certainly choose the Ionic diesel start battery rather than the automotive one. Yes AH rating is less with the lithiums than with similar sized lead acid. But you are damaging the lead acid running it below 50% state of charge where the lithium can go on down - so that pretty much is a wash. If I had a winch on my (wife's) Bronco, I would try it when it needs a battery. I don't do enough off road to justify a winch and it would be hard to mount since I have TOAD hookups on it now.

 

[TruckCamper]

That right there... that comment strongly suggests a given bias not based on science but on political views.

Do share how Lithium is political?

Just to ease your mind... We have lithium batteries in our motorcycle, in our travel trailer (600AH Lithium), in our Raptor (150AH Lithium)... and lithium in a multitude of small devices: chargers, jump packs, laptops, tablets, cell phones.

I'm not anti Lithium but also not pro lithium. It is the best solution for certain functions (at this point). But it's not a good solution for everything and I'm sure better solutions will come as technology progresses.

My point is don't recommend lithium (what is currently available) to fellow Bronco owners. It's not a good fit for any number of reasons.

 

[TruckCamper]

Id love to see a test too. I bet you would be surprised as long as the test is with a lithium STARTER battery. The BMS in them is certainly different than the more common lithium batteries rated at 100A continuous or 200-300A short term. I quoted the mfr CCA and peak amps for a typical lead acid and the Ionic lithium start batteries-did you read them? The battery/bms doesn't care if it is a starter or a winch. And if I was going to run a winch with one of these, I would certainly choose the Ionic diesel start battery rather than the automotive one. Yes AH rating is less with the lithiums than with similar sized lead acid. But you are damaging the lead acid running it below 50% state of charge where the lithium can go on down - so that pretty much is a wash. If I had a winch on my (wife's) Bronco, I would try it when it needs a battery. I don't do enough off road to justify a winch and it would be hard to mount since I have TOAD hookups on it now.

Feel free to test and share the results! Or reach out to any of the manufacturers and see if they recommend this use and what parameters are acceptable (how much load for how long).

 

[evofxdwg]

This is interesting reading. But its AI so take with a grain of salt. Just more incentive to actually run a test.

I don't think I would trust the battery MFRs to run and report an unbiased test. But if someone could convince Will Prowse or some other independent to run it, that would be interesting and conclusive.

I think the temp range under the hood is the dominant deciding factor whether a Lithium start battery is practical. And another variable there is temps where you live/drive. The winch issue vs BMS cutoff is separate and also should be answered.

 

[5GENIDN]

This is interesting reading. But its AI so take with a grain of salt. Just more incentive to actually run a test.

I don't think I would trust the battery MFRs to run and report an unbiased test. But if someone could convince Will Prowse or some other independent to run it, that would be interesting and conclusive.

I think the temp range under the hood is the dominant deciding factor whether a Lithium start battery is practical. And another variable there is temps where you live/drive. The winch issue vs BMS cutoff is separate and also should be answered.

" Now, you can go about building your perfect lithium battery to change the world... "

You made the comment and you need me to explain it to you????

I think you are being intentionally dense.

Not trusting a Manufacturer's testing... perfectly reasonable.

 

[Bradley Thornton]

Added an XS Battery it fit great nice and tight, Its not a perfect fit by size but it fits and it got tight with the factory bracket no movement.

This is the best battery on the market.

The video about battery testing is great BUT manufactures don't all test at the same temp. You have to look in FAQ to find what time they test. I have done a ton of research on the subject. They one battery will do the job of 2 its insane in the real world how good it does.

Little more info on this post.
https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/stronger-battery-optimas-yellow-top-battery.49148/

Need a ((((D3400R))) It has to be the ((R))

May may do one of my ultimate threads today and give a ton of info. Kinda in the mood.

 

[userdude]

" Now, you can go about building your perfect lithium battery to change the world... "

You made the comment and you need me to explain it to you????

I think you are being intentionally dense.

Not trusting a Manufacturer's testing... perfectly reasonable.

Hey now! Only I'm allowed to be dense in these here parts. Thick and wide as the forests of Montana, Mama said so!

However, I'm kinda on TruckCamper's side here. I think he meant it in more of a flippant way and the convo was maybe getting a little jawboning heated for whatever reason. I don't think he meant anything by it, just that he feels strongly about what he believes in this case.

Ten second timeout and everyone involved get yer lunch out, maybe some hangry going on.

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