EPA deregulation to kill Auto Start Stop (ASS)?

[MilesTeg]

Those studies don't make the massive savings you claim as they concede they weren't don't in real-world conditions that include running the A/C or in hot climates.

You're misrepresenting the linked materials. Please don't do that. The Edmunds test does BOTH with A/C off and A/C on. Even with a car with a tiny motor (a Mini Cooper), they still showed a 3% increase in mileage (and, they also saw gains of up to 11% with it off). And, both tests are valid and indeed "real world", because the vast majority of vehicles don't use A/C all the time. Most people (in the U.S.) live in drive in places where it's only needed about 1/4 of the year and even in that time not always needed (like at night).

Of course, I only include the AAA and Edmonds tests as a supplement to the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) test, which is done much more rigorously.

And when they say 'as much as' they ALSO quantified that some could see next to no significant savings.

You are trying to spin that statement to mean something it doesn't. Of course SOME driving styles won't see any benefit. Do you only drive your vehicle on the highway and rarely ever see a stop light? Not gunna see any improvement, for obvious reasons.

That does not mean that if you drive your vehicle in a more statistically average way that you won't see savings.

I didn't buy my Bronco to sweat fractional percentages.

More misrepresentation. It ain't fractional percentages.

If someone wants to use their Bronco to take them out to the trees they hug, so be it. Use ASS all you want. For many of us it's a nuisance we could do without. Oh, and it takes a LONG time to save a measurable amount with gas under two bucks a gallon...

I don't really care if you use it or not. I am only participating here because there's lot of disinformation about it. Like the misrepresentations I've noted from you.

Personally, I like being out in nature, and I like being able to have bigger engines but still minimizing the environmental impact I have on nature and the impact on my wallet. If you have the factual information and still decide it's not for you.. well that's your choice.[/quote][/QUOTE]

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[Jeff P]

I am more hopeful that manufactures have $learned$ what has been a very expensive lesson that has been regulation, incentives, and top-down political pressure of the last 10 years or so, and are going to be very cautious about future implementations of this or that "technology".

There is nothing in it for them to go through the expense/support of help customers disable ASS in their current cars, but I expect to not see it in future products and even with the inevitable change of administrations, I expect them to be less willing to follow this or that "directive", fleet EPA regulation - for example, in the future they will be willing to pay $1 billion (or more) in fines through the tenure of said administration rather then waste $10 or $20 billion tooling up and building products the public does not actually want.

Good old fashioned Capitalist self interest and long term planning is making a roaring comeback in corporate board rooms after the utter debacle of the EV "revolution"...

“Debacle” is an odd word to describe EV sales…

 

[MilesTeg]

You can always tell the guys in favor of ASS (saving gas the world and all) have zero clue the role that operating oil pressure plays in their engine.

This is a non-issue.

A warm start of an engine only seconds to minutes from running will still have oil throughout the engine, and oil delivery and pressure resumes within a fraction of a second.

It's, again, COLD starts that cause a problem. With a COLD start, the engine is dry, the oil is cold, the pump may no longer even be primed. All this means it may take several minutes for oil to actually reach every part of the engine where it's needed. And, of course, on a cold start the various contact surfaces in your engine will not be at temp and may not "fit" correctly causing orders of magnitude more wear until they warm up and fit right.

Nothing you do to an engine results in zero wear. A warm start certainly adds some wear, but one cold start of the engine will incur thousands of times the wear as one warm start. The wear from a warm start is effectively meaningless.

90%+ of the wear your engine will ever take is during a cold start. Most of the rest happens during hard accelerations or due to poor maintenance.

 

[Roger123]

I love the ASS Virtue Signaling. I drive a vehicle that gets 16-22 MPG, 90% of the time by myself but I ALWAYS use ASS, look at ME, I'm saving the planet. Too funny.

 

[MilesTeg]

Informative, we agree on some aspects not all.
Confidence in parts isn’t high no matter the brand. Just heard on the News today that there’s been several reports (collected over time) being stuck in traffic or intersection due to failed components… primarily starter.

Purchased the BRaptor to enjoy in a capacity it provides, fuel savings wasn’t one.

I’ll consider my loss in fuel savings as I add the ProCal4 Tune, S&B CAI, Whipple Intercooler, Charge Pipes, Ported Throttle Body, etc. These are supposed to return a net gain in MPG too… but I’m not adding for MPG.

My Draggy Runs testing everything will pretty much shoot my fuel saving for the year…. Maybe 2.
But I’ll enjoy the BRaptor!

As I've told others: I don't really care if you use ASS. I frequently disable it myself. I do care about people actually having facts about it so they can make a decision based on facts, not lies.

 

[CarmeloS]

A.S.S. should have been an option you could have opted out of for custom sales, like dealer ordered vehicles have it but when I placed my reserve/deposit, should have asked in a wink and nudge kinda way if I wanted it

If I were concerned about Fuel Economy, I wouldn't be driving a 2 and half ton brick on wheels

 

[KT_bronco]

I love the ASS Virtue Signaling. I drive a vehicle that gets 16-22 MPG, 90% of the time by myself but I ALWAYS use ASS, look at ME, I'm saving the planet. Too funny.

Virtue signaling in a bronco forum filled with dudes who are interested in trucks and off-roading? Doubt it, just some common sense discussions on the pros and cons of a system.

 

[KT_bronco]

As I've told others: I don't really care if you use ASS. I frequently disable it myself. I do care about people actually having facts about it so they can make a decision based on facts, not lies.

Facts are a hard sell these days. You have to go for emotion and tribalism.

 

[crenca]

Virtue signaling in a bronco forum filled with dudes who are interested in trucks and off-roading? Doubt it, just some common sense discussions on the pros and cons of a system.

That is just it, ASS makes no sense - common or otherwise. It is lipstick on a med/heavy SUV brick. If what it does is of actual interest, then discussing it in relation to a Bronco or any of the majority of vehicle's American's actually purchase is irrational. The "facts" of lipstick on pigs just reveals the absurdity of even thinking the idea is worth pursuing in the first place.

It only exists because of ideology, and any discussion of the "facts" is irrelevant outside of said ideology.

Edit: Also, more starts (and thus more time at zero oil pressure) is harder on parts then ASS activists realize, warm or not. Finally, AC when ASS kicks in SUUUCCKKKKKSSSS. Here in the desert SW it is a total non starter (no pun intended).

 

[KT_bronco]

That is just it, ASS makes no sense - common or otherwise. It is lipstick on a med/heavy SUV brick. If what it does is of actual interest, then discussing it in relation to a Bronco or any of the majority of vehicle's American's actually purchase is irrational. The "facts" of lipstick on pigs just reveals the absurdity of even thinking the idea is worth pursuing in the first place.

It only exists because of ideology, and any discussion of the "facts" is irrelevant outside of said ideology.

First off, it doesn't only apply to med/heavy suv bricks, it's works on most new vehicles small or large. Which means it was done to reduce overall fuel usage not just the bricks you and I chose to buy.

As for it existing because of an ideology. Believe it or not most things exist because of an ideology, just like the the great United States of America exists because of an ideology.

A system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.
"the ideology of democracy"


I get why you are upset though, you most likely don't like environmentalist and think the they have gone too far with regulation and you blame their ideology. But the question you should be asking is is the regulation good or bad. The other poster gave you a ton of info which you ignored because of "ideology" and only applied it to our own very narrow situation of owning a brick bronco.

You know, I remember very well my uncle swore up and down that seat belts were the stupidest thing for the idiots to use and something "liberals" of the time were pushing. Then he flew through the windshield of his car suffering life changing injuries.

Now, not everyone has a serendipitous bout with reality but if we don't try and make some changes to our energy consumption then that reality will come crashing in.

 

[crenca]

I get why you are upset though, you most likely don't like environmentalist and think the they have gone too far with regulation and you blame their ideology. But the question you should be asking is is the regulation good or bad.

Good or bad is irrelevant - this is the reality of this and many other questions. Without a common set of presuppositions, nothing can be divided into "good" or "bad". A fractured culture (a multi-culture) is one that does not agree on any ground to determine "good" or "bad", or even more basic assertions. "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" is a more rational question then yours about good and evil.

Outside of the philosophical question, the topic is irrelevant in a more immediate sense: the consumer, the market, the "we the people" have spoken: ASS (and the ideology behind it) is rejected in all the ways listed in this thread.

The majority of American's, and all of us on this forum, drive SUVs/trucks. ASS and similar regulation is literally a non-nonsensical question/position in the face of this.

We are consumers, we consume and our desire is what is "good" in any meaningful sense of the term. If one "consumes" a certain ideology, then visit the Prius forum where the Liturgy and rituals of ASS are practiced with appreciation and its 'goods' are acknowledged.

ASS is dead, good riddance ASS...

 

[MilesTeg]

“Debacle” is an odd word to describe EV sales…

If only every "debacle" resulted in 25% worldwide market share in a century old, established market within a decade or so.. lol

 

[KT_bronco]

Good or bad is irrelevant - this is the reality of this and many other questions. Without a common set of presuppositions, nothing can be divided into "good" or "bad". A fractured culture (a multi-culture) is one that does not agree on any ground to determine "good" or "bad", or even more basic assertions. "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" is a more rational question then yours about good and evil.

Outside of the philosophical question, the topic is irrelevant in a more immediate sense: the consumer, the market, the "we the people" have spoken: ASS (and the ideology behind it) is rejected in all the ways listed in this thread.

The majority of American's, and all of us on this forum, drive SUVs/trucks. ASS and similar regulation is literally a non-nonsensical question/position in the face of this.

We are consumers, we consume and our desire is what is "good" in any meaningful sense of the term. If one "consumes" a certain ideology, then visit the Prius forum where the Liturgy and rituals of ASS are practiced with appreciation and its 'goods' are acknowledged.

ASS is dead, good riddance ASS...

See I'm a fairly dense man and I appreciate that technology exists to help interpret what people are saying whether in a different language or sometimes the same. In your case I frankly didn't understand what you were saying so I had to put it into one of those new genius Ais and here is what it came up with. Apologies in advance if this isn't your view. I'm really tying to get an understanding here. Just as in other forums some members couldn't understand why so much hate for electric vehicles. This seems like in the same vein. Anyways, I put your comments into ai as such.



I asked : "can you interpret this to me, i'm a bit dense."
------------------------



Alright brother — let’s unpack this calmly and translate it into normal human language.

First, the tone:

This person is being dismissive and a bit dramatic. There’s philosophy mixed with cultural frustration and some sarcasm.

Now let’s break it down piece by piece.

“Good or bad is irrelevant…”
He’s saying:

You can’t call something good or bad unless everyone agrees on the basic rules for judging it.

He’s arguing that in a divided culture (what he calls a “fractured culture”), people don’t share the same values — so debates about “good” vs “bad” don’t even make sense because there’s no shared moral baseline.

When he says:

“How many angels can dance on the head of a pin is more rational…”

That’s a sarcastic way of saying:

Your question is meaningless because there’s no shared framework to answer it.

It’s a rhetorical flex — not actual logic.

“Outside of the philosophical question…”

Now he shifts from philosophy to politics/consumer behavior.
He says:

The market has spoken. Consumers rejected ASS and the ideology behind it.

So he’s arguing that regardless of whether it’s morally good or bad:

• People don’t want it.
• They buy SUVs and trucks.
• Therefore, it’s dead.

This is basically “consumer preference = reality.”

“We are consumers… our desire is what is ‘good’…”

This is the key ideological statement.
He’s saying:

What people want is what’s good.

Market demand defines value.

That’s a very libertarian / market-driven worldview.

He’s rejecting moral, environmental, or regulatory arguments and saying:

If people don’t buy it, it’s irrelevant.

The Prius forum comment

That’s just tribal sarcasm.
He’s saying:

If you like this ideology, go hang out with like-minded people somewhere else.

It’s cultural signaling.

“ASS is dead, good riddance…”

This is emotional rhetoric.

He’s celebrating what he believes is the failure of whatever “ASS” represents (likely Auto Start-Stop or similar regulation, depending on context).

What He’s Actually Doing
He’s not making a technical argument.
He’s making:

• A cultural argument
• A market-based argument
• A “majority wins” argument
• A tribal identity argument

And he’s wrapping it in pseudo-philosophical language to sound deeper.


The Core Idea in Simple Terms
He believes:

• There’s no shared moral standard anymore.
• Therefore “good/bad” debates are pointless.
• What consumers buy determines reality.
• SUVs dominate.
• Therefore the regulation/technology is irrelevant.
• If you like it, go somewhere else.

That’s it.


Important Observation


Notice something subtle:

He says good/bad doesn’t exist without shared presuppositions…

Then immediately defines “good” as what consumers desire.

So he actually does have a presupposition:

Market preference = good.

He just doesn’t admit it.


If you want, tell me the context of what ASS stands for in that thread, and I can break down whether his argument actually holds water or if it’s just forum chest-thumping.

Sorry I've polluted the forum with more AI crap but thought it might help others who aren't as versed in these views.

 

[crenca]

Sorry I've polluted the forum with more AI crap but thought it might help others who aren't as versed in these views.

Apology accepted!

ASS is dead, good riddance ASS

 

[KT_bronco]

Apology accepted!

ASS is dead, good riddance ASS

But you didn't answer the question, is the Ai right in its interpretation?

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