B&O Audio system "Scientific" incremental upgrade - what really improved things

[DrRoboto]

cool! im in your boat also. dont need to rattle, but I want clean base. have any pics? From where did you power the 500.1 and where did you get the signal?

The signal just comes from the factory subwoofer speaker line, the kicker amp is ok with speaker-level inputs. The power is an 8 gage cable I ran along the rest of the wires all the way to the battery. There's even a rubber grommet filling a hole in the firewall near the steering column that's there for us to run wires through.

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[Mjasi3]

The signal just comes from the factory subwoofer speaker line, the kicker amp is ok with speaker-level inputs. The power is an 8 gage cable I ran along the rest of the wires all the way to the battery. There's even a rubber grommet filling a hole in the firewall near the steering column that's there for us to run wires through.

Ok. Thank you!

 

[broughtie]

@DrRoboto Crutchfield website says the JL speakers don’t fit. Did you have to do any extra work to install or just easy plug and play replacement?

 

[DrRoboto]

@DrRoboto Crutchfield website says the JL speakers don’t fit. Did you have to do any extra work to install or just easy plug and play replacement?

Yeah, I actually asked them about that - they said that if the tolerance in the measurements are close enough that there's a chance the grill will touch the speaker, they list it as not fitting. The jl c2's have a little plastic bar over the tweeters, so if they did touch the grill it's probably ok; but I don't think they do.

The mounting holes all lined up just fine.

A lot of people locally, at stereo stores and actually the guy I talked to at crutchfield, told me they liked the jl speakers in part because the tweeter is silk, not aluminum, and thus is less harsh. The Internet seems to like Hertz speakers. I'm sure there are many good options.

 

[braddavis2017]

I’m curious why you went with the Alpine S2-W8D4 subwoofer instead of the JL Audio Stealthbox. One would think sticking with the same brand would be wise for cohesion but maybe it’s better to mix and match for the best sound?

Kinda like this?

 

[heavyD]

Not necessarily. If there was concern about rattling, Ford could have simply had a sufficient gap between speaker and grill, as occurs when some aftermarket speakers are installed. Are people having rattling issues with those?

Instead Ford added a downward protruding ridge to the grill and used a speaker with lip and foam to mate up. I think Ford was trying to contain the back sound waves as much as possible given the dash limitations, while directing the desired sound waves outward.

Nah. It's for rattling 100%. Plenty of manufacturers use foam around speakers that are mounted close enough to the grill that vibrations can be transferred under low frequecies. Foam is not used to conduct or direct sound waves as it can actually absorb them.

 

[DrRoboto]

I’m curious why you went with the Alpine S2-W8D4 subwoofer instead of the JL Audio Stealthbox. One would think sticking with the same brand would be wise for cohesion but maybe it’s better to mix and match for the best sound?

Kinda like this?

The stealth box is $1100! My entire upgrade cost less than that.

Also, the factory box is obviously highly engineered to use the existing space and include a port. I guessed that it's as good as anything that could fit in there, and as far as I can tell, it is.

The stealth box is just an enclosure, fiberglass, that has to fit in the same space. There can't be anything special about it. It doesn't have a port, it's sealed. The driver is larger, there is that.

Maybe the JL stealth box would be better, but the Alpine driver in the factory box is quite good. Maybe a jl driver would fit in the factory box. I think matching the speaker voicing is more important among the speakers that are all on the same amp.

 

[DrRoboto]

great write up. Did you go with a larger sub or same size?

Same physical size, much higher power handling - 300w RMS, 900w peak if I remember correctly. Actually the same power as the jl stealth box, though the factory enclosure and the Alpine subwoofer I used are 8", while the jl stealth box is 10".

I used the alpine because it's a dual 4ohm coil, same as the factory, so I could use it without an additional amp. Since I subsequently upgraded the amp and have determined it really needs it, the dual coil is no longer a requirement. Some other brand is probably just as good, if it fits physically.

 

[heavyD]

We'll have to disagree. Foam is in fact used to help seal speaker surfaces, including to help prevent back waves from mixing with front waves, and that's likely what Ford did with their design of the dash grills. In particular, it's why Ford added a ridge to the grill that protrudes down from the grill, mating with the speaker surround housing, using foam to seal that interface.

The stock speaker averages around 1/2" or so distance from the dash grills, so there is little danger of contacting the grill and causing vibration. Furthermore if dash grill vibration simply from sound waves was an issue, a lot of folks around here would currently be having grill vibration issues, as their aftermarket speakers no longer make contact with the grill via a foam surround.

Yeah we will definitely agree to disagree here.

 

[DrRoboto]

Hi all, I just finished upgrading my B&O sound system, and it's now above the bar. I made changes incrementally, doing A/B testing, to see what made an actual difference, without just replacing the entire thing. I hope sharing my experience will be helpful to others, I found it very helpful to read what people have posted before me.

TL;DNR summary: replace the speakers, including the subwoofer, in the factory locations; and use a subwoofer amp that will compensate for the head unit's bass attenuation curve (I used the Kicker Key 500.1, and so far it seems great). It passes this suite of tests with flying colors, is much more clear than before, and is more than loud enough.

Longer story: My goal was to have a near-audiophile system; it's surprisingly easy to get great sound these days. I don't need to rattle windows, I just need to hear the recording accurately. My hypothesis is that the engineers really wanted to build a great system within the constraints and did some great engineering, but then had to cheap out on some things towards the end, and that made it suck. The subwoofer box looks highly engineered and well thought out, and the amp is probably decent (it's not hard to make a class-D amp with super low distortion now), and the tuning and EQ of the amp is probably a very good match for the Bronco's interior and speaker locations. They probably had to go with crummier speakers to cut costs, and limited power in the subwoofer, since that's typically the most power-hungry. You can hear the significant roll-off the amp does after every loud sound to limit the RMS power to the subwoofer.

The components I bought are:
- JL Audio C2-400x speakers; three went into the dash, and one in a rear pod. I still have the factory speaker in one pod, because it's mostly filler, not the main source for sound. I might replace it someday.
- JL Audio C2-650x speakers for the kick panels
- Alpine S2-W8D4 subwoofer - fits in the factory B&O subwoofer box, and has two 4-ohm voice coils, so I could try it on the factory amp.
- Kicker Key 500.1 amp.

Since speakers are sold in pairs, I bought two pairs of the 4" speakers, and replaced the three dash speakers and one rear pod. This gave me the opportunity to listen to the factory speaker side-by-side with the JL Audio speakers, and there is a big difference in clarity. It just seems like there's a lot more to the music from the JL speakers; the factory speakers are missing a lot, and muddy by comparison.

I was concerned about getting the subwoofer amp to power the new subwoofer, because I did not know if it would make a difference, and it's an investment in money and time to install. The factory system is loud enough, it just sounded really muddy. But now that I have installed it, I can say unequivocally that adding the amplifier made a huge difference with the subwoofer. It's now quite good. Important: the kicker amp has an EQ compensation that measures the head unit's subwoofer attenuation as it limits the power to the subwoofer, and then compensates for it to get a flat frequency response with its own internal EQ. It really worked. Get that feature, whatever amp you get.

I mounted the amplifier between the subwoofer box and the rear of the car, screwing into some little blocks that clamp it into the body pillar there. It's a good place for the wiring. The 17' 8 gauge power wire wasn't quite long enough - I think 20' would be long enough.

I started with the 6.5" kick panel speakers; then a pair of dash speakers; then the subwoofer; then the center speaker and a rear pod; and finally the subwoofer amp. Each step saw noticeable improvement. Now, I'm very happy with it! the cost was around $1000 total.

update: after living with this system for a while, I do think replacing the B&O amp with an aftermarket A2B and amp will improve sound, because the EQ is set for the factory speakers, and can’t be changed. As it is now with new speakers, it’s much more clear, but seems uneven in frequency. Like it has low bass, but is missing mid bass. It just seems like there are holes. I wish I could test it before buying.

 

[DrRoboto]

Hi all, I just finished upgrading my B&O sound system, and it's now above the bar. I made changes incrementally, doing A/B testing, to see what made an actual difference, without just replacing the entire thing. I hope sharing my experience will be helpful to others, I found it very helpful to read what people have posted before me.

TL;DNR summary: replace the speakers, including the subwoofer, in the factory locations; and use a subwoofer amp that will compensate for the head unit's bass attenuation curve (I used the Kicker Key 500.1, and so far it seems great). It passes this suite of tests with flying colors, is much more clear than before, and is more than loud enough.

Longer story: My goal was to have a near-audiophile system; it's surprisingly easy to get great sound these days. I don't need to rattle windows, I just need to hear the recording accurately. My hypothesis is that the engineers really wanted to build a great system within the constraints and did some great engineering, but then had to cheap out on some things towards the end, and that made it suck. The subwoofer box looks highly engineered and well thought out, and the amp is probably decent (it's not hard to make a class-D amp with super low distortion now), and the tuning and EQ of the amp is probably a very good match for the Bronco's interior and speaker locations. They probably had to go with crummier speakers to cut costs, and limited power in the subwoofer, since that's typically the most power-hungry. You can hear the significant roll-off the amp does after every loud sound to limit the RMS power to the subwoofer.

The components I bought are:
- JL Audio C2-400x speakers; three went into the dash, and one in a rear pod. I still have the factory speaker in one pod, because it's mostly filler, not the main source for sound. I might replace it someday.
- JL Audio C2-650x speakers for the kick panels
- Alpine S2-W8D4 subwoofer - fits in the factory B&O subwoofer box, and has two 4-ohm voice coils, so I could try it on the factory amp.
- Kicker Key 500.1 amp.

Since speakers are sold in pairs, I bought two pairs of the 4" speakers, and replaced the three dash speakers and one rear pod. This gave me the opportunity to listen to the factory speaker side-by-side with the JL Audio speakers, and there is a big difference in clarity. It just seems like there's a lot more to the music from the JL speakers; the factory speakers are missing a lot, and muddy by comparison.

I was concerned about getting the subwoofer amp to power the new subwoofer, because I did not know if it would make a difference, and it's an investment in money and time to install. The factory system is loud enough, it just sounded really muddy. But now that I have installed it, I can say unequivocally that adding the amplifier made a huge difference with the subwoofer. It's now quite good. Important: the kicker amp has an EQ compensation that measures the head unit's subwoofer attenuation as it limits the power to the subwoofer, and then compensates for it to get a flat frequency response with its own internal EQ. It really worked. Get that feature, whatever amp you get.

I mounted the amplifier between the subwoofer box and the rear of the car, screwing into some little blocks that clamp it into the body pillar there. It's a good place for the wiring. The 17' 8 gauge power wire wasn't quite long enough - I think 20' would be long enough.

I started with the 6.5" kick panel speakers; then a pair of dash speakers; then the subwoofer; then the center speaker and a rear pod; and finally the subwoofer amp. Each step saw noticeable improvement. Now, I'm very happy with it! the cost was around $1000 total.

Ok everyone... After living with it for a while, I started to realize it really seemed boomy at the low end, and was missing the mid-bass. I took some measurements with Room Equalization Wizard (REW), and despite being a rookie, could see that hole clearly. I'm guessing the amplifier doesn't have much oomph, and also is tuned to handle the deficiencies of the factory speakers.

I bought and installed a mObridge 8.1 channel DSP amplifier, and the difference is pretty significant. It's much, much better. A larger difference than replacing speakers.

Unfortunately, after going down this rabbit hole incrementally, I've determined that every aspect of the bronco system needs to be replaced to be actually good. It's not about volume, it's about clarity and sound quality.

I sure do like it now though, and since I spend so much time in the car, it's worth having satisfyingly good audio.

I'm also having a lot of fun finding with the tune using the DSP and contemplating little changes and upgrades, which are all now very minor and just for fun.

 

[Brian_B]

bought and installed a mObridge 8.1 channel DSP amplifier, and the difference is pretty significant. It's much, much better. A larger difference than replacing speakers.

I am about to make this same jump and have pretty much come to the same conclusion as you.

Either just do the speakers and live with the modest upgrade, or jump in the deep end and get an amp ~with~ DSP. My mistake was not getting a DSP/amp combo - so it will cost me almost as much to add just the DSP as to upgrade to an amp with an internal DSP.

If you don’t have a DSP you cannot tune the system right at all - you need something that can adjust timing in particular. So, for me, I can either have full range to my speakers, but the timing is jacked and it sounds muddled out, or I can have good timing and crisp sound, but the entire bottom end is gutted out by the factory EQ

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