LOBO OFF-ROAD STAGE X FRONT SUSPENSION KIT

[Trooper19]

I love the idea , don't like 4" per side extra width.
Can a setup be done that is near stock width or about 2" extra per side.
I know that the possibility of reducing travel, but puts the overall truck build at a more reasonable cost.

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[Snacktime]

I love the idea , don't like 4" per side extra width.
Can a setup be done that is near stock width or about 2" extra per side.
I know that the possibility of reducing travel, but puts the overall truck build at a more reasonable cost.

Camburg is coming out with a 2" per side kit with real bump stops. If it's priced fairly I might buy in.

 

[swooshdave]

Rough crowd.

Anything costing that much deserves some scrutiny.

 

[Dusty]

I'll give you guys my thoughts on it as someone who has actually driven it (twice).

I don't have any skin in the game and I work for a competing company in the suspension market, but I'm friends with Chris from Lobo and Nestor from Xtravel so consider all of that if you think it matters, when I say that I think this concept is a game-changer. Are there considerations to address in the strength of the factory pivot mounts? I don't know, I'm not an engineer but apparently some of you are so I'll defer that argument to you guys, and to Chris and Nestor.

But to me, all of that is just black magic anyhow. I don't know how it works and I'm in no position to argue about how strong it is or what-not. I'm no expert on that stuff. But at this point I do happen to be one of the few experts on how it drives. I was lucky enough to drive Nestor's Bronco with the firs prototype, then Chris let me hop into his for a hot lap at United By Bronco. Both times I was blown away by the driving experience with this setup.

What's so cool about it is that you can literally go just about whatever speed you want over the rough stuff. Sure, the car will move with the terrain, depending on the quality of coilovers you have. Both times I drove it, it was paired with FOX 3.0's and they soaked everything up incredibly well. But what the Xtravel system does is take the jerkiness out of the steering system. You don't even realize how much that is affecting your ability to negotiate terrain at speed (and enjoy it), until it's no longer there. Both times I've driven it, I found myself hunting for rougher and rougher terrain to test it through, at faster and faster speeds.

If you've ever been on Resurrection at Sand Hollow, you know the living hell that is the trail leading down from the cemetery over to the sand dunes, where exposed bedrock criss-crosses the road in deep, hard furrows. It will rattle your teeth out of your skull and send you to the chiropactor for an adjustment if you don't slow down to a crawl over that stuff. It was close by so of course I headed straight for that section when Chris gave me the wheel at UBB, and hit the gas. I couldn't believe how smooth and effortless it sailed through there. I went back and forth over it a couple of times, faster each time.

I love both rock crawling and high speed desert running, but I've come to the conclusion over the years that it's hard to build a factory based vehicle that excels at both. So if your use case is primarily rock crawling, maybe this system doesn't have a value proposition for you. Portals would probably be the wiser investment. But for those who love to go fast, like the Raptor crowd, Baja people, etc., or just about anyone who is considering a long travel kit anyhow, I think they owe it to themselves to at least drive one of these as part of your research. Nothing sells it like a seat of the pants experience. I don't know what Chris's plans are for offering more test drives with it but I hope he plans to set up some dates in different areas to let folks check it out in person.

I understand it being hard to get your head around--it was for me too, until I actually drove it.

 

[hollapm]

I have also had the opportunity to drive Chris’s Bronco with the X-travel setup, after driving my bronce for 2 hours and can say without a doubt that his rig drives exceedingly well. It’s really hard to explain, but on the road it had predictable steering. Note there isn’t caster on the wheels so where you track the rig is where it’s going to go. It took minimal thought process to realize that the truck will maintain the direction set and is easily learned and understood in a matter of minutes. I then had the ability to drive off-road and it soaked up the terrain like nobody’s business. I remember when going through off-road training that you want to pick a line and stick to it. I have never been in a vehicle that makes it so easy to stick to the line. There is extremely limited steering wheel “feedback”, meaning it’s not trying to jerk the steering wheel out of your hand when on rough terrain, but you do know that you’re in a rough spot. It just goes where you want it to go. I even tried a very small portion of rock crawling and was even further blown away. It reminded me me of the first time I drove a modern suspension vehicle offroad, how easy and effortless they are. His Bronco went up the obstacle like it was not there. It made easy work of the process. It is by far the most confident rig I have driven.
You truly have to drive it to believe it. It’s hard to explain and few people will understand how good it really is unless they get behind the wheel. Kinda like when someone tells you they have something that will knock your socks off. No one believes till they try it. It’s a one of a kind and I hope we see many of these on the road, as it’s well ahead of anything else out there.

 

[BAUS67]

My two sticking points are:

1. Why 4" wider. I've seen the SXS X-Factor kits maintain stock track width, so I know The Bronc does not need to be wider for the suspension to work. I guess because it is geared towards the "desert runner" Which is fine, next thing you know it will only be available for a 4DR, I'm used to it. More seriously I wheel in this.......

4" wider per side gets a bit much when asking it to traverse around trees. I wheel in a forest not in a desert. Any plans on a "narrower" kit??? Here again I guess it is geared towards a "desert runner" theme.


2. 12.5" of travel has me a bit perplexed. For me I can achieve 11" of travel now, with OEM "yellow" shocks.........

If I can achieve this now wouldn't 4" wider track add more travel than 1.5" I guess I'm missing something. Now would I want to "desert run" my yellows with that kind of travel. No. But in my "neck of the woods" that travel means the world, and I can fit between the trees as I'm not 4" wider. Here again maybe a "desert runner" doesn't want travel but I would think he would. IMO this kit should have more travel, but I'm not the expert. Maybe the OEM can't travel more than 12.5" I could be wrong the Braptor only has 13". I would think longer custom CVs should have longer travel ability than OEM. Maybe just off the shelf Foxes not custom ones to take advantage of the longer CVs. By contrast APG wheel travel is 16.5" with an increase of 3.5" to track width.

Just a few thoughts that have crossed my mind after investigating the X-Factor system and understanding more about it. Most hands on reviews are SXS. not much on them with full size vehicles. Back to my studies........

 

[87-Z28]

Wheel travel is a function of the LCA length and the shock mounting location on the LCA (motion ratio or motion amplification).

For oem the shock mounts about 10” from the pivot points and LCA is about 16” long. So a factor of close to 1.6. So 6.25” of SAS shock travel gives about 10” of wheel travel.

for a 4” longer LCA (20” total) and the same shock mounting location the motion amplification becomes about 2.0. So 6.25” of shock travel results in about 12.5” of wheel travel.

Changing shock mounting location will affect motion ratios, going from 10” to 8” from pivot points and 20” LCA gives about (20/8=2.5) or 16” of wheel travel for 6.25” shock travel.

Basic relationship between shock travel and wheel travel. Assuming shock and LCA are nearly perpendicular.

 

[BigMeatsBronco]

As long as your kingpin axis is at some non-vertical angle, you could achieve a scrub radius of 0 regardless of offset (wheel or portal), you just have to use a taller tire. Obviously, this has real world limitation with what you can and should use. Folks should still try to keep wheel offset reasonable for the sake of wheel bearings. If you add width, it should be something functional like arms or portals. Regardless though, I like the idea of having a slightly more vertical kingpin axis (virtual), but not sure its worth the potential tradeoff in robustness.

I would really like to see this suspension move with no tie-rod attached.

how do you see the tires height affecting this design? I don't see the connection here? big or small tire, the axis is in the same location....determined by the position of the attachment points distance apart (and from each other and the frame mounts) NOT from tire tread-patch-distance-to-joints.

 

[BigMeatsBronco]

why is travel so minimal?

 

[87-Z28]

Curious about braptor LCA geometry. Can someone measure? @BigMeatsBronco if you haven’t put it on yet.

what is total length from pivot mounts to knuckle? What is location of shock mount from pivot points? And what is separation distance of the pivot points?

 

[Dusty]

To be fair, I've read similar threads about the feeling of how significant the difference is when upgrading the coilovers to Fox or kings...was this your 1st time behind the wheel in a well suspended Bronco? Do you have seat time in other long travel Broncos or vehicles to compare with?

LOL....no, and yes.

 

[swooshdave]

My two sticking points are:

1. Why 4" wider. I've seen the SXS X-Factor kits maintain stock track width, so I know The Bronc does not need to be wider for the suspension to work. I guess because it is geared towards the "desert runner" Which is fine, next thing you know it will only be available for a 4DR, I'm used to it. More seriously I wheel in this.......

4" wider per side gets a bit much when asking it to traverse around trees. I wheel in a forest not in a desert. Any plans on a "narrower" kit??? Here again I guess it is geared towards a "desert runner" theme.


2. 12.5" of travel has me a bit perplexed. For me I can achieve 11" of travel now, with OEM "yellow" shocks.........

If I can achieve this now wouldn't 4" wider track add more travel than 1.5" I guess I'm missing something. Now would I want to "desert run" my yellows with that kind of travel. No. But in my "neck of the woods" that travel means the world, and I can fit between the trees as I'm not 4" wider. Here again maybe a "desert runner" doesn't want travel but I would think he would. IMO this kit should have more travel, but I'm not the expert. Maybe the OEM can't travel more than 12.5" I could be wrong the Braptor only has 13". I would think longer custom CVs should have longer travel ability than OEM. Maybe just off the shelf Foxes not custom ones to take advantage of the longer CVs. By contrast APG wheel travel is 16.5" with an increase of 3.5" to track width.

Just a few thoughts that have crossed my mind after investigating the X-Factor system and understanding more about it. Most hands on reviews are SXS. not much on them with full size vehicles. Back to my studies........

The simple answer is that this suspension is not for you. Which is ok. It's not for me either as we also have ton of trees to navigate.

 

[DTounget]

Let me see if I can help clear up some of the details. Our shop has done all of the engineering on all of the Xtravel technology-based suspension kits. So, I know first-hand how the "sausage is made."

My two sticking points are:

1. Why 4" wider. I've seen the SXS X-Factor kits maintain stock track width, so I know The Bronc does not need to be wider for the suspension to work. I guess because it is geared towards the "desert runner" Which is fine, next thing you know it will only be available for a 4DR, I'm used to it. More seriously I wheel in this.......

Much like how the raptor community has gone with buying a regular f-150 and upfitting to raptor suspension parts, this kit allows bronco owners to have at minimum parallelity with the bronco raptor benefits without the price tag of the raptor model. As far as the X-Travel kits that "Maintain stock width" those models are already the "raptor" versions. example the can am has a 64" and a 72 version we made the kits based on the 72"



4" wider per side gets a bit much when asking it to traverse around trees. I wheel in a forest not in a desert. Any plans on a "narrower" kit??? Here again I guess it is geared towards a "desert runner" theme.

So, this kit also is not any wider than the mirrors are on the vehicle, unless you're unbolting your mirrors to navigate the trees it would fit on normal trails I would feel. We don't have many tight forest trails in our area, so I'm curious do you run with your mirrors folded in?

2. 12.5" of travel has me a bit perplexed. For me I can achieve 11" of travel now, with OEM "yellow" shocks.........

The kits goal is to be a parallel with the Raptor model.





If I can achieve this now wouldn't 4" wider track add more travel than 1.5" I guess I'm missing something. Now would I want to "desert run" my yellows with that kind of travel. No. But in my "neck of the woods" that travel means the world, and I can fit between the trees as I'm not 4" wider. Here again maybe a "desert runner" doesn't want travel but I would think he would. IMO this kit should have more travel, but I'm not the expert. Maybe the OEM can't travel more than 12.5" I could be wrong the Braptor only has 13". I would think longer custom CVs should have longer travel ability than OEM. Maybe just off the shelf Foxes not custom ones to take advantage of the longer CVs. By contrast APG wheel travel is 16.5" with an increase of 3.5" to track width.

Learning from the Polaris PR nightmare of Usable wheel Travel and Actual travel (including tire squish) we checked the host bronco to see if what was advertised is what is there and if you smashed the bump rubber on the yellows it was like 10.5" ish.

There are many compromises when it comes to kits like this. The goal was to be 100% bolt on and be along the dimensions of the Raptor version. You can only install so big of a spring into the stock location before it coils binds and it can't be longer due to the axle and the steering tie rod.

If the design request was to cut off shock towers and fabricate weld mounts on, then yeah, we could get 17" of wheel travel all day long.

Just a few thoughts that have crossed my mind after investigating the X-Factor system and understanding more about it. Most hands on reviews are SXS. not much on them with full size vehicles. Back to my studies........

We are also in the process of designing kits for AWD Trophy trucks and Ultra 4 vehicles along with Toyota tundra we felt the bronco steering could benefit the most from this technology.

Feel free to ask any questions and as long as it doesn't get into the specifics of the patent, I will happily answer them.

 

[TeocaliMG]

how do you see the tires height affecting this design? I don't see the connection here? big or small tire, the axis is in the same location....determined by the position of the attachment points distance apart (and from each other and the frame mounts) NOT from tire tread-patch-distance-to-joints.

I didnt mean that the tires can impact the king pin axis (they cant) but that the intersection of the kingpin axis to the tire contact patch (defining scrub radius) is a factor of both the tire diameter as well as offset (wheel/portal or otherwise).

 

[BAUS67]

Let me see if I can help clear up some of the details. Our shop has done all of the engineering on all of the Xtravel technology-based suspension kits. So, I know first-hand how the "sausage is made."

Thanks for the response. I'm glad to see you didn't take my concerns as trying to "bash" Lobo as that was NOT my intent. Just trying to understand it because I have not seen it, but I'm not a SXS guy. I watch Ultra4 and have for years (Bombers rule!!! ) and have heard the term X-Factor mentioned before but again I'm not a SXS guy so I didn't pay real close attention to what they were talking about.

Do I wheel with my mirrors folded in you asked.......... Yes as a matter of fact it happens more than you might think. Do I drive down every trail with the mirrors folded in, constantly, no. But I do need to fold them in to "get by" obstacles, yes. Do I break tailights and not crunch the body??? Yes. It is very easy. Trees, and rocks for that matter, will "jump out in front of you" when you least expect it. Drive over a moss, or mud, covered rock and slide a bit, CRUNCH. I've seen more than one Bronc at the local park with the fender flare ripped off why? because the trails are tight, and trees don't move. Also a wider track, for the most part, means a wider turning radius. Wider turning radius on tight trails mean alot of "jockeying" around. For years I've lifted trucks and the common practice of pushing the knuckle out and using 0 offset wheels have killed many a turning radius. The Bronc is a different animal in that respect. BIG tires can be "tucked in" and still have turning radius.


If I understand @87-Z28 correctly the stock shock mount on the LCA is 10" from its mounting point on the frame. If you move that mounting point, for the shock, inward to 8" the travel increases with the same length of shock. Again I'm not an engineer, I'm going off the info I've read and what I've seen from other companies in the mid/long travel arena. Not trying to steal any patents or anything like that. So IMO if I were to make a kit that extends the track width in order to gain wheel travel then I would want to give it as much wheel travel as I could. I guess that is why I'm not a "sausage" maker.

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