Kicker Key Amp 200.4 Install DIY Video - Do this first!

[83XLT]

Thank you for the response.
This is exact setup that I have currently.
Do you hear any muddy/ busy sound with DSP on (compared to DSP off)?

Anybody knows if Time Alignment (time correction) from the factory unit? If so, Kicker recommends 'TIME DELAY' switched to DF.
I may try this later tonight just to see if it makes any difference.

Mine sound great at any volume. does it always sound muddy or just during heavy bass or percussion? I found that my dash speakers vibrated too much at higher volumes until I put 600hz bass blockers on them. My kick panel speakers don't have bass blockers but they Key is set to crossover at 120, so the lowest bass does not come from the front speakers at all. My guess is that your speakers are trying to hit the low notes that they are not able to hit, making for an overactive woofer.

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[Chirico]

Mine sound great at any volume. does it always sound muddy or just during heavy bass or percussion? I found that my dash speakers vibrated too much at higher volumes until I put 600hz bass blockers on them. My kick panel speakers don't have bass blockers but they Key is set to crossover at 120, so the lowest bass does not come from the front speakers at all. My guess is that your speakers are trying to hit the low notes that they are not able to hit, making for an overactive woofer.

I have 600hz blockers on the dash and the Key‘s HPF is set to 120hz as well.

It sounds muddy at any volume, I feel like.
Of course, less with low volume but it gets obvious with higher volume.
Especially Jazz with more than a couple of instruments playing together is unbearable. At least to my ears.

So I actually tried it again from the scratch this evening.
(Time Delay/ EQ didn’t help at all)

But slightly different approach this time.
- HU sound setting to my liking (not Reset position)
- Key mic facing slightly forward (about 10 o’clock)
- Pink noise playing at lower volume
(Previously did at 22 per the manual)
This time, I tried with 17, 19, 25.

It is still muddy with DSP on.

But it actually made a good improvement with DSP off.
Clean, Relatively good soundstage, Nice separation, and wider stage.*
(With previous setup, it was too flat, no soundstage with DSP off)
* This is very much my personal opinion. I am new to this and no trained ears.

I like it with 17 the best but it made control tone too loud after gain matching.
Didn’t like 25 at all.
So ended up with 19.

I may try to spend more time over the weekend (not sure if HU sound setting before auto DSP makes the difference or MIC position or volume or all of them) but I think I am good for at least tonight;

Thank you again for your input and help.

 

[83XLT]

I have 600hz blockers on the dash and the Key‘s HPF is set to 120hz as well.

It sounds muddy at any volume, I feel like.
Of course, less with low volume but it gets obvious with higher volume.
Especially Jazz with more than a couple of instruments playing together is unbearable. At least to my ears.

So I actually tried it again from the scratch this evening.
(Time Delay/ EQ didn’t help at all)

But slightly different approach this time.
- HU sound setting to my liking (not Reset position)
- Key mic facing slightly forward (about 10 o’clock)
- Pink noise playing at lower volume
(Previously did at 22 per the manual)
This time, I tried with 17, 19, 25.

It is still muddy with DSP on.

But it actually made a good improvement with DSP off.
Clean, Relatively good soundstage, Nice separation, and wider stage.*
(With previous setup, it was too flat, no soundstage with DSP off)
* This is very much my personal opinion. I am new to this and no trained ears.

I like it with 17 the best but it made control tone too loud after gain matching.
Didn’t like 25 at all.
So ended up with 19.

I may try to spend more time over the weekend (not sure if HU sound setting before auto DSP makes the difference or MIC position or volume or all of them) but I think I am good for at least tonight;

Thank you again for your input and help.

double check polarity on sub! good luck

 

[Chirico]

double check polarity on sub! good luck

Thank you for the tip.
I will check them (but I assume you meant front speakers? Since subwoofer is not part of the equation? The sub was disconnected when running DSP/ setting up the Key)
I am using harnesses for all new connections. It is hard to imagine reversed wiring, but I think it is worth to check.

 

[broncoToBe]

Anyone have a link to the document with the pictures on how to take the panels off shown in the video?

 

[GreyCactus]

I am still trying to figure out RIGHT SETUP for the Key.
Researched everywhere but couldn't find clear answers.

ANYBODY HAVING TROUBLE WITH MUDDY SOUND?

I stated with Key 200.4 with PNP harness + Kicker KS (Dash).

After DSP auto run, it made the factory audio from AM radio to a decent audio player. With much better sound stage.

BUT I quickly realized that it made most of songs in my playlist muddy.
(I am not an audio guy, and I don't think I can describe it with proper terms.
But it seems like too much mid? Sounds busy? Like Excessive EQ? Not natural/ harmonized?)

I fiddled with DIP setting (EQ off. Higher HPF setting).
It helped a bit but not enough to yield clean sound.

With DSP turned off, it becomes much cleaner.
But I am losing all the sound stage.

I ran DSP auto run multiple times but no improvement.

Upgraded kick panel and added a small sub.
It made better sound, but the same problem persists.

Anybody experiencing (or experienced) the same?

I haven't tried FADER and TIME DELAY since I have no idea what they are.
Please educate a poor newbie and help me out of this muddy hole;

Regards,

Based on your comment that there is too much mid, I think your problem is with the 4 inch dash speakers and not the amp. Those speakers are putting out full range and having the amp is just making it more noticeable. Do you feel like all of the sound is coming from the dash?

 

[Chirico]

Based on your comment that there is too much mid, I think your problem is with the 4 inch dash speakers and not the amp. Those speakers are putting out full range and having the amp is just making it more noticeable. Do you feel like all of the sound is coming from the dash?

I have 600hz blockers on Dash and the amp is set to 120hz HPF.
Shouldn't be too much problem from both 2way speakers on dash and kick panel, yes?

I am planning to check 'Polarity' and 'Frequency' over this weekend.
Found some 'Frequency generator app' but no good 'Polarity tester app' yet.
Anybody knows of a good (free) Polarity check app that I can run from my iPhone?
I could just pop open the panels again play some test tones from Youtube though. (Just Dash speaker cover is pain;;; Already broke a pin from each side...)

 

[Billnchristy]

What are your amp gains at? You may be enabling compression early because you're overdriving your inputs. Try to run the gains as low as possible so you're not sending clipped inputs to the amp. Start around half.

I'm not used to high level inputs because it's not a great way to get good sound but we have what we have so let's work with it.

Never try to set up your stereo to run wide open, you'll be giving up a lot. Most aftermarket units will even clip outputs at max volume, you can damn-well better believe this Ford unit is. I always try to tune to 3/4 volume being the max with maybe a little bit of head-room when you're feeling frisky.

On this unit I'd probably start with 5/8. Set gains where things sound really good there, then run the DSP.

I'd probably skip compression, let your ears decide if you are distorting and turn down, compression is just that, it smooshes everything to keep the outputs from clipping, but all it really does is make a "wall of sound". Look into 1990s compression wars and look at the outputs that albums were using, there is no dynamic range because it's practically 0 to 100 with nothing in between. You lose nuance, which sounds like mud.

As for polarity, with the system off, just "pop" the speakers with a battery and see which way the cone extends.

Tape a lead onto a AA battery and connect to the plus and minus of the speaker (disconnected from system). Make them all extend the same direction.

When I was an installer, we used our drill batteries but for small speakers a AA is fine but a 9v is super convenient because you can buy one of the little cap things and have a popper ready-made. It will be violent with a small speaker though, so AA and some electrical tape will do the trick, but be a little finicky.

EDIT 600- Looking at the pic it looks like the gains are super sensitive as they are almost all the way down so maybe just start at zero, volume at 5/8 (not sure what the max number, if it's 30 then do like 17-19) and get a good clean sound with no mud or distortion. Go from there. You want gains as low as possible, if they're already near the edge of distortion then you're just going to feed the amp crap. Even if you have to run at a higher volume than you used to, it's better off. Once you have a clean signal going in we can work on the output.

 

[Billnchristy]

Sorry for the continual posting on this but if it helps, it's worth it.

You can hear 1% distortion on mids/highs, it takes upto 10% to really hear it for bass.

One thing I noticed on the dash was that it was holier than the Vatican, when a speaker is in this condition you basically get cancellation and weird phasing effects, especially at low frequencies. At a minimum I would try to stuff those holes with polyfill if you can't find a way to legit plug them. Covering them in a dynamat style material would help. The only other way to minimize the effects of a leaky enclosure is to stop bass going to them completely. Bass blockers are super meh in my opinion as the 6db slope is weak and still lets a lot of frequencies through:

Let's say you can play at 90db. 3db is basically halving your volume and a bass blocker is 6db slope:

300hz 90db
150hz 84db
75hz 76db
37.5hz 70db

Still a lot of bass energy getting through. Your speaker is still trying to reproduce those low tones, probably exceeding it's max excursion (cone movement) and making a holy terror of your sound.

I wouldn't recommend just using a higher frequency because then you're getting into the real midrange and it will sound tinny.

Our only options are:
Use a higher slope crossover by adding a coil in series and making it a 12db filter:
300hz 90db
150hz 78db
75hz 66db
37.5hz 54db

That's safe and probably allows you to drop to 250 or so and still protect it

OR-

Sealing that enclosure up so it can push down to 150hz or so without losing control and then the additional low end won't sound like poop.

 

[Billnchristy]

Most "good" systems either use a 3 way with a small mid and large woofer or a 2 way with a large woofer and tweeter.

I'm trying to go the 3 way route with our system but you could just get a really nice woofer for the kick and put a tweeter in the dash pod.

We haven't explored the kick-panel. Are you still using the stock driver down there?
There's a chance your mud is coming from it, it's a flimsy ass plastic cone with a tiny magnet and may just be over driven.

Also, you guys running rears, you do realize you're running the key at 2ohm up front, which it's not designed to do, adding this strain to it might be the cause of the non-optimal performance. If still tying the 2 fronts together on a single channel, I'd probably go 8ohm.

Unless the stock system runs them series? I am not certain.

 

[GreyCactus]

Most "good" systems either use a 3 way with a small mid and large woofer or a 2 way with a large woofer and tweeter.

I'm trying to go the 3 way route with our system but you could just get a really nice woofer for the kick and put a tweeter in the dash pod.

I ended up removing the 4 inch dash speakers and replaced it with a component set with the tweeters in the dash. Sounds so much better!

 

[Billnchristy]

Here's a chart of the frequency range of instruments/voices. If you start filtering at 600 you're kicking a lot of that job over to the kick panel.

I would put the localization of sound in the 200-1500hz area. It's the vital midrange for music and it's where your ears can really locate the sound. Bass envelopes you because of the long and slow sound wave. Treble is hard to locate, ever have an alarm going off and you just can't find it?

Most people really hear jack above 10-12k. We did a test at the installer institute and younger folks (like I was at the time, only 18) could hear upto 16k while older folks were in the 10-12 range). You'll note, very little musical information comes from up there too.

 

[Chirico]

What are your amp gains at? You may be enabling compression early because you're overdriving your inputs. Try to run the gains as low as possible so you're not sending clipped inputs to the amp. Start around half.

I'm not used to high level inputs because it's not a great way to get good sound but we have what we have so let's work with it.

Never try to set up your stereo to run wide open, you'll be giving up a lot. Most aftermarket units will even clip outputs at max volume, you can damn-well better believe this Ford unit is. I always try to tune to 3/4 volume being the max with maybe a little bit of head-room when you're feeling frisky.

On this unit I'd probably start with 5/8. Set gains where things sound really good there, then run the DSP.

I'd probably skip compression, let your ears decide if you are distorting and turn down, compression is just that, it smooshes everything to keep the outputs from clipping, but all it really does is make a "wall of sound". Look into 1990s compression wars and look at the outputs that albums were using, there is no dynamic range because it's practically 0 to 100 with nothing in between. You lose nuance, which sounds like mud.

As for polarity, with the system off, just "pop" the speakers with a battery and see which way the cone extends.

Tape a lead onto a AA battery and connect to the plus and minus of the speaker (disconnected from system). Make them all extend the same direction.

When I was an installer, we used our drill batteries but for small speakers a AA is fine but a 9v is super convenient because you can buy one of the little cap things and have a popper ready-made. It will be violent with a small speaker though, so AA and some electrical tape will do the trick, but be a little finicky.

EDIT 600- Looking at the pic it looks like the gains are super sensitive as they are almost all the way down so maybe just start at zero, volume at 5/8 (not sure what the max number, if it's 30 then do like 17-19) and get a good clean sound with no mud or distortion. Go from there. You want gains as low as possible, if they're already near the edge of distortion then you're just going to feed the amp crap. Even if you have to run at a higher volume than you used to, it's better off. Once you have a clean signal going in we can work on the output.

Really appreciate for the detailed answer and advice.

What I did was simply following the Kicker's manual.

- Run auto DSP with 3/4 (@22) of max volume. (HU Audio control at default)
- Increase the gain until the limiter hits and back off

Q: I thought gain setting is more like INPUT-OUTPUT matching? Rather than volume control. So I didn't play with it much.

One interesting finding from Kicker Tech support the other day:
Kicker found out that the Bronco's HU is clipping even before 50% of volume from their inhouse test.

So, I tried DSP setting with low volume the other night (even though Kicker tech support said it is not really related).
Tried volume 17, 19, and 25 (just to see and compare).
With lower volume, I had to rotate the gain nob more (again I thought it should be matched: hit the limiter and back off).

With DSP on, same muddy sound but interesting enough, it actually made some good improvement with DSP off.
I liked 17 the best but it made the control sound/ chime too loud due to higher gain setting. So ended up with setting run with volume 19 (DSP off)

By reading through your comments, I guess it could be something to do with the gain.
I will try your advice this weekend.

Thank you again.

 

[Billnchristy]

Here's a little graph I made:

I did it in half octaves so we can highlight the 3db differences. (Our ears perceive has half volume)
At 450hz with a 600hz blocker you're at half volume in a vital range of most voices and instruments. Your sound stage is now pushing down towards that speaker (kick that is much louder). It continues until we hit 75 or so which is car moving noise level (ours probably much higher). Anything under that will be drowned out which means the kick speaker has completely taken over. By the time we hit what I consider the localization limit for sound, we are 3x lower in volume. Soundstage has collapsed and is at your feet.

This considers the kick as able to output a constant 90db, which isn't feasible but throwing in more factors just makes this a mess, so we have to have a constant.

 

[Billnchristy]

Yeah if we're clipping above half volume you should never go above half volume on the stereo. The amp is just going to amplify the distortion. It's sad that we have such a god-awful source but there isn't much we can do about that.

The input gain is basically how much of the signal you're pumping into the amp. The amp then amplifies that to a power that is audible. This is the problem with high level signals, it's already loud (relatively) and rather dirty compared to a low level signal.

Ideally we could re-program the potentiometer where 100% is actually 50% so we would still have some decent volume control. I think I will be ok because I was comfortable cruising at around 11-12 when I was by myself. With the family it's much lower so we can talk.

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