EPA deregulation to kill Auto Start Stop (ASS)?

[MilesTeg]

It's as true as the sky is blue, up is up and down is down, and death and taxes.

Your claim that ASS is (or rather was until recently) not a mandate is as Orwoodian as @ScottyC 's girlfriend.

Ahh yes, just ignore what I actually said and repeat your baseless claim as if true. Goodbye.

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[KreeHBronco]

Not sure if I will hate it or be OK with the "ASS" feature. Hybrids have this and the operation is seamless since they have an electric motor to get you going. My 2026 Badlands manual should be interesting. I am pretty sure if I drive in Sport mode (or Baja 2H) it doesn't enable, but if I drive in Economy it will work. Hope to find out next week.

 

[Lcubed]

Not sure if I will hate it or be OK with the "ASS" feature. Hybrids have this and the operation is seamless since they have an electric motor to get you going. My 2026 Badlands manual should be interesting. I am pretty sure if I drive in Sport mode (or Baja 2H) it doesn't enable, but if I drive in Economy it will work. Hope to find out next week.

extremely seamless with the 7MT.

pretty sure it's taking cues from the clutch pedal position while on the automatics, it has to guess intentions.

 

[MilesTeg]

Not sure if I will hate it or be OK with the "ASS" feature. Hybrids have this and the operation is seamless since they have an electric motor to get you going. My 2026 Badlands manual should be interesting. I am pretty sure if I drive in Sport mode (or Baja 2H) it doesn't enable, but if I drive in Economy it will work. Hope to find out next week.

It's pretty seamless. Even in my automatic F-150, it's never caused me any issue (beyond mild surprise when getting used to it). In my Bronco manual I would have to try pretty hard (read: tearing up my clutch and transmission) to be in gear and trying to go before the engine is started back up.

It only activates if you shift to neutral and let the clutch out (which you should do in a manual anyway -- your throw out bearing and clutch springs will thank you).

Ford also has a very decent setup. Lots of things will prevent it from stopping the engine:

• If it's too hot outside (very hot)
• If it's too cold outside (very cold)
• If the A/C needs to run the compressor to keep up with cooling demands. (despite the various misinfo, your car will keep running A/C just fine)
• If the battery is low on charge
• If the battery's max capacity has fallen too low due to age/abuse.
• If the wheels are turned more than a few degrees
• If the brake pedal is not pushed enough.
• If the engine is not warmed up.
• If it's engaged before already during your stop (not exactly sure on how it decides this).
• If the clutch is pushed.
• Probably tons of other things.

There's a display you can open that will tell you the status of the system and let you know why it is or is not activating.

Depending on your driving situation, it can save a few % up to 25% or more (according to SAE tests). Well worth the small inconvenience it might cause you occasionally unless you just don't care about wasting thousands of bucks in gas over the lifetime of your vehicle.

It'll also warn you when your battery is starting to get weak, because it'll stop doing its thing, hah.

 

[23OBX2.7]

Again with the assumptions - welcome to America, land of the free and home of the brave from all walks of life we unite as one people. Now, until Ford updates the software to make the Auto S/S remember what position it was left in, you have the freedom to choose either a wired dongle to disable it, push the button every time you drive it, or just live with it....all freedom loving choices to help with the fake outrage this item has caused. Enjoy your Bronco in good health and have a great day.

or buy FP tune ot get the memory and very welcome driveabiliy gain. Worth wveru time 10 time over.

 

[dougcjohn]

Everyone is commenting on ForScan as not capable to disable ASS.

Has anyone looked at Ford's Own FDRS programing tool? You can still buy a 2-Day license to get a job done. If already mentioned, apologies... I read through 1-3 and jumped to comment. This thread quickly became a book.

I ordered the newer (slim flat model) Wireless Keypad for my 2025 BRaptor that requires FDRS to turn on, enter Card ID Number and add feature to BRaptor. ForScan is not capable of that feature either... at least on newer models. I'm waiting for Keypad to come back from getting match painted to Shelter Green, before I buy another 2-days FDRS. And Yes, to use FDRS requires a different Interface tool, can't use ForScan's ELM327 Interface, need a J2534 Interface.

I'm thinking somewhere in FDRS, there is a way to simply change the Default state to OFF and button continues to toggle between the 2 states, with default state of Button being OFF. I'm making loose assumptions, I haven't looked yet. This is basically what the 3rd Party Interfaces are performing, they save & pass the last state of Button.

This is my first ASS vehicle, my other new is a 2024 F450 Limited and diesels don't have ASS. I will say it's an obnoxious feature... and very startling too. I looked down at my gauge and noticed Oil Pressure was Zero... since I had just changed my oil 2 days prior (430 miles break in), I about crapped... let foot off break and Engine starts & Oil Pressure fine. That sucks!

Additionally, I'm pretty confident I read / viewed that the ProCal4 tuner had the ability to turn off ASS too. That may not be accurate but I do recall it in a sales hype video or article. I have the ProCal4 ready... updated & OEM Tune Backed up, just haven't flashed new tune yet pending some Pre-Post Draggy tests with little more milage.

 

[dougcjohn]

On the debate of ASS saving money... read / viewed ? a mechanical discussion about the savings of ASS. It was questioned if savings for long term owners.... if you flush the car in 3-4 years, this likely doesn't apply. Starters & Flywheels are still part of the equation, and starters will wear out either prematurely or by usage wear. Often when they wear out, the Flywheel ring also shows signs it's worn & should be replaced. Replace a few starters (shop part rate & labor) and a flywheel possibly, quickly exceeds the minimal fuel savings.

Additionally, emission components and fuel systems are impacted each time the engine starts. The Injection rate for a "start" is normally strong / richer than an "idle" injection.

Serpentine Belts take a little more stress "starting" than "idle".
All this is minimal, but so is the fuel savings of ASS at stop lights and particularly stop & go traffic.

 

[Ducati1098]

Everyone is commenting on ForScan as not capable to disable ASS.

Has anyone looked at Ford's Own FDRS programing tool? You can still buy a 2-Day license to get a job done. If already mentioned, apologies... I read through 1-3 and jumped to comment. This thread quickly became a book.

I ordered the newer (slim flat model) Wireless Keypad for my 2025 BRaptor that requires FDRS to turn on, enter Card ID Number and add feature to BRaptor. ForScan is not capable of that feature either... at least on newer models. I'm waiting for Keypad to come back from getting match painted to Shelter Green, before I buy another 2-days FDRS. And Yes, to use FDRS requires a different Interface tool, can't use ForScan's ELM327 Interface, need a J2534 Interface.

I'm thinking somewhere in FDRS, there is a way to simply change the Default state to OFF and button continues to toggle between the 2 states, with default state of Button being OFF. I'm making loose assumptions, I haven't looked yet. This is basically what the 3rd Party Interfaces are performing, they save & pass the last state of Button.

This is my first ASS vehicle, my other new is a 2024 F450 Limited and diesels don't have ASS. I will say it's an obnoxious feature... and very startling too. I looked down at my gauge and noticed Oil Pressure was Zero... since I had just changed my oil 2 days prior (430 miles break in), I about crapped... let foot off break and Engine starts & Oil Pressure fine. That sucks!

Additionally, I'm pretty confident I read / viewed that the ProCal4 tuner had the ability to turn off ASS too. That may not be accurate but I do recall it in a sales hype video or article. I have the ProCal4 ready... updated & OEM Tune Backed up, just haven't flashed new tune yet pending some Pre-Post Draggy tests with little more milage.

There’s nothing in FDRS that will let you change anything with auto start stop.

 

[dougcjohn]

There’s nothing in FDRS that will let you change anything with auto start stop.

Well, that’s good to know. Unless that changes in updated version, that also answers if Ford Dealerships can easily turn it off via programming.
Saves me from looking or researching deeper!

 

[Lcubed]

Starters & Flywheels are still part of the equation, and starters will wear out either prematurely or by usage wear. Often when they wear out, the Flywheel ring also shows signs it's worn & should be replaced. Replace a few starters (shop part rate & labor) and a flywheel possibly, quickly exceeds the minimal fuel savings.

apparently toyota has a built in counter for their ASS system that requires a mandatory inspection of components at 384,000 cycles before resetting

assuming a large number of S/S cycle per day of 100 times, that well over 10 years.

(i do trust toyota engineering for longevity more than i trust ford)

 

[Ducati1098]

Well, that’s good to know. Unless that changes in updated version, that also answers if Ford Dealerships can easily turn it off via programming.
Saves me from looking or researching deeper!

Yep, no programming for anything like that. FDRS won’t let you change things like forscan does, not even tire size or anything like that. It’s completely different and far more locked down.

 

[MilesTeg]

On the debate of ASS saving money... read / viewed ? a mechanical discussion about the savings of ASS. It was questioned if savings for long term owners.... if you flush the car in 3-4 years, this likely doesn't apply. Starters & Flywheels are still part of the equation, and starters will wear out either prematurely or by usage wear. Often when they wear out, the Flywheel ring also shows signs it's worn & should be replaced. Replace a few starters (shop part rate & labor) and a flywheel possibly, quickly exceeds the minimal fuel savings.

Additionally, emission components and fuel systems are impacted each time the engine starts. The Injection rate for a "start" is normally strong / richer than an "idle" injection.

Serpentine Belts take a little more stress "starting" than "idle".
All this is minimal, but so is the fuel savings of ASS at stop lights and particularly stop & go traffic.

But the fuels savings isn't "minimal". Independent tests by the SAE, AAA, Edmonds, and many other say that ~10% is a pretty decent average, with some common driving situations (inner city) getting as much as 25% or so.

Getting a 10% boost is fuel economy is HUGE -- car companies have done a lot more crazy and expensive things to get that kind of gain than making a stronger starter and flywheel.

As to the engine start mixture, it's COLD starts that cause your engine to run very rich for a significant amount of time. One cold start will cause the engine to run VERY rich for at least several minutes until the engine is warm enough, which will cause more issues with emissions than hundreds, maybe thousands, of warm starts. A warm start of an engine does use a bit more gas than idling though. Typically the break even point is about 5-7 seconds.

 

[dougcjohn]

But the fuels savings isn't "minimal". Independent tests by the SAE, AAA, Edmonds, and many other say that ~10% is a pretty decent average, with some common driving situations (inner city) getting as much as 25% or so.

Getting a 10% boost is fuel economy is HUGE -- car companies have done a lot more crazy and expensive things to get that kind of gain than making a stronger starter and flywheel.

As to the engine start mixture, it's COLD starts that cause your engine to run very rich for a significant amount of time. One cold start will cause the engine to run VERY rich for at least several minutes until the engine is warm enough, which will cause more issues with emissions than hundreds, maybe thousands, of warm starts. A warm start of an engine does use a bit more gas than idling though. Typically the break even point is about 5-7 seconds.

Was typing up a response… phone crapped and lost it. Not worth retyping… In brief a 10% saving on MPG on Truck or SUV’s that avg 10-15 mpg isn’t a significant savings… about 1-1.5 mpg improvement. That’s about 30-45 miles on a 30 gal tank…. apx 2-3 gal fuel. Inversely, I’ve seen articles on experiments: same driver, same work route, same vehicle… 3 months ASS active, 3 months deactivated. Insignificant difference, lot less than 10% and in my opinion little gain.

If fuel efficiency is the goal… stop with the jackrabbit starts, back the speed down to 55-60. Those two individually will save more than ASS systems. No need for all the SUV, Big Trucks, and our poor mpg Bronco. But fuel efficiency is not, and neither is ASS systems.

It’s a procedure that prematurely wears components, etc. But for those that like it… drive on!

 

[MilesTeg]

Was typing up a response… phone crapped and lost it. Not worth retyping… In brief a 10% saving on MPG on Truck or SUV’s that avg 10-15 mpg isn’t a significant savings… about 1-1.5 mpg improvement.

With a big, inefficient engine like one in a vehicle that gets only 10-15mpg, you'll see more than the average I'm talking about, because big, inefficient engines are more inefficient (pound for pound) at idle than small, efficient engines. Firing 8 cylinders to keep things running correctly is gunna be more inefficient than 4. This is why GM, et al. played around with variable displacement engines.

These days the gap is smaller, due to multiple/variable cams and computer controller ignition, but it's still there.

That’s about 30-45 miles on a 30 gal tank…. apx 2-3 gal fuel.

.. and over the lifetime of the vehicle it adds up to thousands of dollars.

Inversely, I’ve seen articles on experiments: same driver, same work route, same vehicle… 3 months ASS active, 3 months deactivated. Insignificant difference, lot less than 10% and in my opinion little gain.

Here's the SAE study, the Edmunds test, and the AAA test. I've shown you mine -- now you show me yours.

https://www.sae.org/papers/auto-stop-start-fuel-consumption-benefits-2023-01-0346

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2014/07/aa...rld-benefits-automatic-stop-start-technology/

https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/do-stop-start-systems-really-save-fuel.html

If fuel efficiency is the goal… stop with the jackrabbit starts, back the speed down to 55-60. Those two individually will save more than ASS systems.

Or, since they aren't mutually exclusive -- do both?

No need for all the SUV, Big Trucks, and our poor mpg Bronco. But fuel efficiency is not, and neither is ASS systems.

This is pretty much the rub. You want a big inefficient vehicle like a Bronco? ASS helps you keep being able to buy one because it helps Ford make vehicles that are less damaging to the environment, your pocket book, and your health.

 

[michelle227]

With a big, inefficient engine like one in a vehicle that gets only 10-15mpg, you'll see more than the average I'm talking about, because big, inefficient engines are more inefficient (pound for pound) at idle than small, efficient engines. Firing 8 cylinders to keep things running correctly is gunna be more inefficient than 4. This is why GM, et al. played around with variable displacement engines.

These days the gap is smaller, due to multiple/variable cams and computer controller ignition, but it's still there.



.. and over the lifetime of the vehicle it adds up to thousands of dollars.



Here's the SAE study, the Edmunds test, and the AAA test. I've shown you mine -- now you show me yours.

https://www.sae.org/papers/auto-stop-start-fuel-consumption-benefits-2023-01-0346

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2014/07/aa...rld-benefits-automatic-stop-start-technology/

https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/do-stop-start-systems-really-save-fuel.html




Or, since they aren't mutually exclusive -- do both?



This is pretty much the rub. You want a big inefficient vehicle like a Bronco? ASS helps you keep being able to buy one because it helps Ford make vehicles that are less damaging to the environment, your pocket book, and your health.

Those studies don't make the massive savings you claim as they concede they weren't don't in real-world conditions that include running the A/C or in hot climates.

And when they say 'as much as' they ALSO quantified that some could see next to no significant savings.

I didn't buy my Bronco to sweat fractional percentages. If someone wants to use their Bronco to take them out to the trees they hug, so be it. Use ASS all you want. For many of us it's a nuisance we could do without.

Oh, and it takes a LONG time to save a measurable amount with gas under two bucks a gallon...

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