Clutch & Cylinder Failed at less than 900 miles. Dealer denied warranty claim

[gatorjohn]

I had one of the first manual Jaguar F-Types produced. The Gen 1 clutch was from the Volvo parts bin and was a noted issue such that Jaguar replaced several of those 440 with a beefier clutch. I later got a second replacement because, at ~1200 miles, the flywheel wasn't done, contributing to the second failure.

But we dont have a 'known issue' with the Bronco. I've got one that I ordered, so ive been pretty much the only one behind the wheel. Like you, ive driven many manuals in my life, having learned on a Volvo 1800S with no synchros...

This failure didn't just happen overnight. The service staff know that as well. Missing them off at every turn wont help nor will misquoting the law.

Who said it happened overnight? The slave cylinder failing (which is confirmed) can also lead to clutch slippage, and would also be a manufacturer defect. I don't know if that is what happened, but they haven't explored that scenario at all at this point based on their diagnostics performed.

Where did I misquote the law? If I take this to trial/aribitration, Ford will have to provide evidence that definitively points to misuse. I'm arguing they have not met that burden.

Despite my frustration being expressed through these posts -- I've been very nice and cordial to the service advisor, Ford, and the tech involved. I've never mentioned the Magnussen moss warranty law to them, nor have I been rude, abusive, or any of the sort. I've simply asked for the diagnostic steps and evidence they've gathered to support their warranty denial. I'm not sure why that should be an issue before proceeding with an $8k bill being charged for driving habits I know I did not employ while using the vehicle.

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[Poppavein]

I’m also thinking the bad slave cylinder was a culprit. But I’m not a professional mechanic. Usually slave cylinders fail completely, instead of partially. (I think. )

In any case the labor would be covered by the slave replacement (assuming typical slave cylinder location). Worst case is you just have to pay for the clutch part. There is nothing you could have done to cause the slave to fail in 900 miles.

 

[BadlandsA51]

I asked them for rev data and vehicle data that supports their claim. They said "there are no codes thrown since it's a mechanical failure' and I also asked specifically for over rev data from the PCM, and they said they can't retrieve it. I don't think thats right, but that's what the service advisor told me.

If it did show over revs -- that would support their claim. So I'm not sure why they would withhold that from me?


The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act puts the burden on the OEM to prove that it was operator error. So far that only hard evidence they have is "the clutch looks like the first bulletin picture."

If they have PCM data, they're not using it currently to deny the warranty claim.

If there wasn’t an over-rev DTC, there’s not any over-rev data stored.

 

[BadlandsA51]

And, the clutch could have came apart due to shifting to too low of a gear. That could happen on a 5-4 downshift where, instead of 4th, the trans would have pulled into 2nd. That would overspeed the clutch disc and throw the friction facings off. If the driver realized he was in the wrong gear as he released the pedal and stopped before the engine over-revved, there wouldn’t be an overrev DTC stored in the PCM, but the clutch is still destroyed.

 

[davebdave]

And, the clutch could have came apart due to shifting to too low of a gear. That could happen on a 5-4 downshift where, instead of 4th, the trans would have pulled into 2nd. That would overspeed the clutch disc and throw the friction facings off. If the driver realized he was in the wrong gear as he released the pedal and stopped before the engine over-revved, there wouldn’t be an overrev DTC stored in the PCM, but the clutch is still destroyed.

I’ve never considered this. Could the sincro handle that much spin-up or would you have to slam it into gear? How much rpm can a clutch disc withstand?

 

[Andrew Bynum]

They don't "have" to do anything until you get it in front of a judge, and here is what that looks like:

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/ffs-lets-all-stop-referencing-the-magnussen-moss-act.609911/

Normally I post this story when people complain that the dealer / manufacturer has to prove the 90 psi supercharger blew their engine, because the purpose of MM was to protect people that use aftermarket oil filters and such.

Although, you haven't mentioned if you have any mods?

The internet never disappoints. The post you linked to, is a joke that apparently no one has gotten for nearly six years. OP in that link is not a lawyer. He’s a troll. I’m a lawyer in consumer warranty defense, and I laughed all the way through that post.

In short: no one is going to take your car away for years just because you filed a lemon lawsuit. We do vehicle inspections that take about 3 hours all the time.

Just think about how absurd that would be.

 

[Nibroc99]

This might be crazy, because I'm less familiar with manuals, but have some basic knowledge. But couldn't a failing slave cylinder cause the clutch to not fully disengage when pressing the clutch pedal, therefore not fully separating it from the flywheel and causing it to rub when shifting or idling?

 

[ScottyC]

People are stupid. If it had any amount of miles on it before you got it, I’d be pushing hard that some idiot at the dealer smoked that thing before you ever touched it.

Someone else asked how many miles on the truck when you purchased? Could be someone burned it up prior to you taking delivery.

At issue here is the selling dealer and repairing dealer are two different places. Has the OP contacted the selling dealer to express his concerns? Don't really know. Has the repairing dealer offered any kind of "courtesy" in the repair estimate or had Ford for that matter....when I see the quote, "I will never buy from <insert brand here> ever again!" what difference does them "making good" on any repair make? You may not want to flame them on Google or other publicly accessible forums because that's not your style yet here you are with your finger on the flame thrower trigger blasting away....

I would have it flatbed trucked to the selling dealer and have them make it right, or as others have said, get it brought to an independent shop (after checking with them first) to see about getting it repaired with the mentioned upgraded parts. Good luck with your endeavor and advise if you get it repaired to your satisfaction.

 

[cbrenthus]

The internet never disappoints. The post you linked to, is a joke that apparently no one has gotten for nearly six years. OP in that link is not a lawyer. He’s a troll. I’m a lawyer in consumer warranty defense, and I laughed all the way through that post.

In short: no one is going to take your car away for years just because you filed a lemon lawsuit. We do vehicle inspections that take about 3 hours all the time.

Just think about how absurd that would be.

I'm admittedly not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a ?holiday Inn Express last night However, and I know the MM thread OP is not a lawyer as well, but the whole thing sounds plausible to me. We've chatted before, and I respect your knowledge and experience as a consumer lawyer, but you mention "lemon law" in the above... Can you give us examples of Magnusson Moss cases? I've heard many 1st person accounts of lemon law cases, but never a Magnusson Moss case. But, for 25 years, I've heard people on the internet constantly talk about how you can mod the heck out of your vehicle and the dealer / manufacturer has to "prove" the mod cause the failure, and my attitude has always been that they don't have to prove anything until you take it to court.

 

[Andrew Bynum]

I'm admittedly not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a ?holiday Inn Express last night However, and I know the MM thread OP is not a lawyer as well, but the whole thing sounds plausible to me. We've chatted before, and I respect your knowledge and experience as a consumer lawyer, but you mention "lemon law" in the above... Can you give us examples of Magnusson Moss cases? I've heard many 1st person accounts of lemon law cases, but never a Magnusson Moss case. But, for 25 years, I've heard people on the internet constantly talk about how you can mod the heck out of your vehicle and the dealer / manufacturer has to "prove" the mod cause the failure, and my attitude has always been that they don't have to prove anything until you take it to court.

Mag Moss is the same thing, just federal instead of state. It’s often a fallback for Plaintiffs when their state claims are defeated, they have nothing left but nuisance damages, and Plaintiff’s counsel would like to bill more while their client continues to drive what they believe to be a dangerous lemon with no resolution.

 

[cbrenthus]

Mag Moss is the same thing, just federal instead of state. It’s often a fallback for Plaintiffs when their state claims are defeated, they have nothing left but nuisance damages, and Plaintiff’s counsel would like to bill more while their client continues to drive what they believe to be a dangerous lemon with no resolution.

I thought Lemon Laws were to protect the consumer from a bad product, such as buying a brand new vehicle and having it at the dealer multiple times for the same problem. So, the issue is being fixed under warranty at no cost to the consumer, however, it can't be truly fixed so the dealer / manufacturer has to buy the vehicle back.

Whereas I understood Magnusson Moss to protect consumers from being denied warranty coverage due to using aftermarket parts. And while many people say things like "they have to prove the aftermarket oil pump you used caused the bearings to fry" the real intention, as I understand it, is to prevent dealers / manufacturers from say, denying warranty for a brake master cylinder because the consumer used aftermarket brake pads that meet the manufacturers specs. Also, to prevent dealers from denying warranty for something completely unrelated such as a broken window motor because the vehicle is lifted.

And i believe Magnuson Moss was actually created to protect the aftermarket, not the consumer. Can you imagine what would happen to non-OEM oil, filters, brake pads, batteries, etc if every manufacturer could require only OEM parts? The aftermarket would collapse and OEM prices would soar, and my buddy in Sandusky OH who finally graduated college after 7 years and inherited his dad's auto parts business and just completed a sales trip to get their new brake pad line sold in stores would have to shut the whole thing down!

Once again, I'm not an attorney, so I'm probably wrong, but that had been the understanding I've been under: They "try but can't" fix it, lemon law... They "won't" fix it, Magnussen Moss.

 

[harpo]

And, the clutch could have came apart due to shifting to too low of a gear. That could happen on a 5-4 downshift where, instead of 4th, the trans would have pulled into 2nd. That would overspeed the clutch disc and throw the friction facings off. If the driver realized he was in the wrong gear as he released the pedal and stopped before the engine over-revved, there wouldn’t be an overrev DTC stored in the PCM, but the clutch is still destroyed.

I did the 5 to 2 shift in my badlands, was pretty happy the engine didn't explode as someone described above. 40000 miles later the clutch seems ok.

I was mindlessly following 2 slow campers in 6 gear at about 55 then realized I had a passing lane, floored it, nothing since I was in 6th, dropped to 5th, not enough to complete the pass before the lane ended, tried to grab 4 fast, got 2nd. Fully released the clutch, then immediately put it back in. Like I said, was pretty happy the engine didn't explode.

 

[Steve_In_29]

Reading through a number of replies and many attest to their years of driving a manual as a testament that the failure isn't due to their driving experience. As an aside, Ford originally offered the manual transmission at the Bronco Off-Roadeo in 2021. That lasted all of 3 months as all the "experienced" manual drivers smoked the clutches causing those vehicles to be recalled/retired from the fleet. Now, only 10spAuto transmissions are available for the BOR fleets.

There's a huge difference between knowing how to drive a manual transmission and knowing how to drive one OFF-ROAD.

 

[Beach_Bum]

There's a huge difference between knowing how to drive a manual transmission and knowing how to drive one OFF-ROAD.

The only location in MY'21 that offered the manual was the Texas BOR. The same location that is used for the Bronco Sport. Did all the Manual Kings forget how a clutch operates?

It's always the same argument when there is a problem with the clutch. People always attest that they have driven a manual for X number of years as if the greater that X is, it implies they are infallible. Yet, those Manual Kings were able to get the fleet of manuals retired in 3 months from BOR.

 

[archerscreek]

You’re not going to find a magical explanation here for the mechanical failure that you can then present to the dealer that will cause them to change their decision and , whalla, then tell you your fix will now be covered under warranty. So use your time and energy to find a lawyer who specializes in consumer protection claims against automotive dealers. There aren’t many out there. My state of Wisconsin only has a handful according to what one of them stated. They take cases with the expectation that the defendants will ultimately be forced to pay them. So no out of pocket costs to you. And they have likely dealt with that particular dealer dozens, perhaps hundreds of times over the years. So they might be able to give you an understanding of whether that particular dealer is a bad offender or whether that dealer has been reasonable in the past. Again, you’re not going to successfully litigate your claim online. Yes, venting has some positives. But this is now past the venting stage.

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