Save on Fuel (and get more power) - How to Properly Blend with Ethanol

[swamp2]

Your app showed even less E85 needed. I would imagine that is HoV being added into the equation. Perhaps I am using it wrong. How do I use the app if I add a couple of gallons of VP Racing 101 unleaded? Not for the Bronco but for the M2. I normally run 2 gallons of E85 and 1.5 gallons of VP Racing in the M2.

OK, I have misspoke. The app can not handle race fuels above 99 octane. It needs many non linear lookup curves (not tables, they are actual look up equations).

The only real substitution is a simple hand calculation using volume weighted octane blending. This should be reasonably accurate since blending fuels of similar chemistry won't be a non-linear problem. It just ignores the small 10% EtOH and assumes it's 91 no EtOH.

Octane of mix = (vol1 octane1 + vol2 octane2)(vol1 + vol2)

Of course you lose the flexibility here of being able to choose your total volume. That can be done with some algebra.

In this case, 13.9 gal 91 + 3 gal 102 will be almost dead nuts 93.

Sponsored

 

[AZ4x4Adventure]

Why is everyone using 91 oct gas as the mix instead of 87 and save more money? For my 2 Door 2.7 I just put in 8 gal of 87 and 8 gal of E85 and get E46.

5 Gal of 87 and 11 Gal of E85 gets me E60.

Is there a cost efficiency portion added to the app? Plug in the cost of each grade of gas/E and let the app figure if it is better to put in more E85 with pump 87 or less E85 with more pump 91

 

[Dave2020GT]

OK, I have misspoke. The app can not handle race fuels above 99 octane. It needs many non linear lookup curves (not tables, they are actual look up equations).

The only real substitution is a simple hand calculation using volume weighted octane blending. This should be reasonably accurate since blending fuels of similar chemistry won't be a non-linear problem. It just ignores the small 10% EtOH and assumes it's 91 no EtOH.

Octane of mix = (vol1 octane1 + vol2 octane2)(vol1 + vol2)

Of course you lose the flexibility here of being able to choose your total volume. That can be done with some algebra.

In this case, 13.9 gal 91 + 3 gal 102 will be almost dead nuts 93.

I don't run VP101 with the Bronco, only the M2.

 

[swamp2]

Is there a cost efficiency portion added to the app? Plug in the cost of each grade of gas/E and let the app figure if it is better to put in more E85 with pump 87 or less E85 with more pump 91

I've been pondering that. It would be very easy to add. But for a given octane goal it is always lower cost to blend with a lower octane base.

What would be really cool is to input your mpg (or attempt to calculate it) of different blends and optimize for $/mi, not mpg.

 

[gbub]

I did not experience this at all with my F-150. The only tank of gasoline it ever saw was the one it left the dealership with. It was strictly E85 after that. When I tore it down at 30k miles to build it, the bearings were perfect. Sounds like he was confusing Ethanol with Methanol or you heard wrong. There are plenty of vehicles that are factory flex fuel and can run exclusively on E85

It is possible that it was methanol but he was not running a rail dragster. He had a 350 Chevy engine stuffed into an Opal. I know you have to be careful with methanol because it can cause fatigue cracks in some metals and is very aggressive on plastics and rubber. I don't think he was so that serious into drag racing that he would go to the trouble of setting up to use methanol.

I could be wrong. He may have said alcohol and I expected it to be ethanol. I am sure he would know what he was using.

I am aware of flex fuel vehicles. I bought a 2011 Fusion for my wife and it is flex fuel. I don't think she ever runs E85 in it though.

 

[pony2bronco]

Hey, dumb question but where are you guys finding pump E85? No go at my local sheetz and wawa's.

 

[PWillette]

No E85 here either, 93 top tier all I can get

 

[swamp2]

There is one thing that may be a problem when using E85. That is getting into the oil.

This is highly contrary to the large fleet of E85 Flex Fuel vehicles on the market today. Surely none of them have this problem.

 

[Dave2020GT]

Hey, dumb question but where are you guys finding pump E85? No go at my local sheetz and wawa's.

I use the gas buddy app.

 

[swamp2]

Hey, dumb question but where are you guys finding pump E85? No go at my local sheetz and wawa's.

E85 Stations App from Play Store.

 

[gbub]

This is highly contrary to the large fleet of E85 Flex Fuel vehicles on the market today. Surely none of them have this problem.

I am aware of that. Street vehicles don't dump a lot of fuel in the engine for a short distance and then shut down. I also stated "Our Bronco engines don't see the conditions that a drag race engine does but it is still something to consider."

I totally agree that E85 should not be a problem but shorter oil change intervals might be considered. The Bronco engines seem to have significant oil dilution even with gasoline. Gasoline dissolves into the oil and dilutes it. That is not a big problem until it reduces the viscosity too much. Ethanol also dissolves into the oil but when it binds with water it is not soluble in oil. That is much worse than dilution.

If oil is changed frequently or some other means of getting the ethanol/water out of the oil is done, it would have little or no effect. Even running the engine a long time at temperature can help remove ethanol or any fuel from the oil by a distillation process. Short trips don't do much for that.

 

[swamp2]

For the sake of a balanced view here, I have done some additional research on the topic of ethanol safety in a non Flex Fuel vehicle. This is not my personal experience, but simply the result of research. I certainly welcome any clarifications/corrections/additions.

1. There is no Flex Fuel compatible Ecoboost engine in the Ford lineup. Prior I stated this or something implying it.
2. Running a tuned Bronco at around E50 or higher on every tank is not recommended, long term/permanently, as there are almost for sure some components in their fuel systems for which E50 will cause greater slow/long term degradation. This can be reduced/largely prevented by occasionally running a tank of pump 91 or 93.
3. For all practical purposes, all US pump gas is E10 (10% ethanol), so some level of EtOH is safe for all vehicles, for all fill ups. That number is actually above 10, but I don't think it is entirely known if it is 20, 30, 40, etc. Limitations could arise from either chemistry (as per below), fuel system capacity or tune limitations.
4. The idea that E85 is bad for plastics or seals in the fuel system remains completely incorrect (again for any vehicle since around 2000).
5. The real risks, which again may more show up in terms of accelerated wear or long term issues are the following:
   1. Injector and Pump (HPFP) Clogging: Modern gasoline contains Drag Reducing Agents (DRAs) and heavy detergents designed to stay in suspension in a 90/10 gasoline dominant, pump fuel mix. When you tip the scales to 50/50 or so, the ethanol (polar) changes the polarity of the entire tank of fuel. Gasoline in contrast is non polar. The gasoline additives can no longer stay fully dissolved and they can "precipitate" (turn back into solids) and settle as a sticky, black, tar-like substance. These can plug the fine micron filters inside the fuel injectors or stick to the HPFP plunger.
   2. HPFP Wear: This pump relies entirely on the fuel itself to lubricate its internal piston and bore. Gasoline is naturally "oily", whereas EtOH is a "dry" solvent—it effectively washes away lubrication. At ~E50 concentrations, the "wash" effect is strong enough to cause premature micro-galling on the pump piston, eventually leading to a loss of fuel pressure or a seized pump.
6. To entirely alleviate these concerns there are aftermarket pumps and injectors, but those should probably also get an occasional tank of pump 91 or 93 to be conservative as per 5-1 above.

@Ducati1098 , it would be great for you to clarify your prior related input on this:

2.7 can run full pump e85, as long as it has a custom tune, without any fuel system modifications.

Specifically, is the 2.7 (or other Bronco HPFPs) chemically fully compatible, long term, with any thing from E10-E85 or perhaps you were only referring to rubber/plastics compatibility, having the correct tune and the flow rate of the pump/injectors?

 

[Ducati1098]

For the sake of a balanced view here, I have done some additional research on the topic of ethanol safety in a non Flex Fuel vehicle. This is not my personal experience but simply the result of research. I certainly welcome any clarifications/corrections/additions.

1. There is no Flex Fuel compatible Ecoboost engine in the Ford lineup. Prior I stated this or something implying it.
2. Running a tuned Bronco at around E50 or higher on every tank is not recommended, long term/permanently, as there are almost for sure some components in their fuel systems for which E50 will cause greater slow/long term degradation. This can be reduced/largely prevented by occasionally running a tank of pump 91 or 93.
3. The idea that E85 is bad for plastics or seals in the fuel system remains completely incorrect (again for any vehicle since around 2000).
4. The real risks, which again may more show up in terms of accelerated wear or long term issues are the following:
   1. Injector and Pump (HPFP) Clogging: Modern gasoline contains Drag Reducing Agents (DRAs) and heavy detergents designed to stay in suspension in a 90/10 gasoline dominant, pump fuel mix. When you tip the scales to 50/50 or so, the ethanol (polar) changes the polarity of the entire tank of fuel. Gasoline in contrast is non-polar. The gasoline additives can no longer stay fully dissolved and they can "precipitate" (turn back into solids) and settle as a sticky, black, tar-like substance. These can plug the fine micron filters inside the fuel injectors or stick to the HPFP plunger.
   2. HPFP Wear: This pump relies entirely on the fuel itself to lubricate its internal piston and bore. Gasoline is naturally "oily", whereas EtOH is a "dry" solvent—it effectively washes away lubrication. At ~E50 concentrations, the "wash" effect is strong enough to cause premature micro-galling on the pump piston, eventually leading to a loss of fuel pressure or a seized pump.
5. To entirely alleviate these concerns there are aftermarket pumps and injectors, but those should probably also get an occasional tank of pump 91 or 93 to be conservative as per 4-1 above.

@Ducati1098 , it would be great for you to clarify your prior related input on this:



Specifically, is the 2.7 (or other Bronco HPFPs) chemically fully compatible, long term, with any thing from E10-E85 or perhaps you were only referring to rubber/plastics compatibility, having the correct tune and the flow rate of the pump/injectors?

By modifications I just meant upgrades to the fuel system like bigger injectors or pumps.

As far as all the other stuff, I’d say it is worth noting. Though I think anyone would be extremely hard pressed to find a single failure directly related to long term high ethanol usage. Anything out there is likely anecdotal reports where someone attributes a failure to that, but with no clear proof. At the end of the day, fuel system related failures happen all the time no matter what fuel is used.

Either way, really overall a non-issue IMO, especially if you do switch out to regular gasoline every few tanks.
That being said, I personally don’t without issue so far.

 

[KTM300]

Not sure what you are claiming and if I guess, regardless of my guess, I disagree.

Plenty of research is out there that says e85 fuel has a lower miles per gallon. My f150 says it to on avg miles per gallon too. Your spending a dollar to save a dime

 

[dougcjohn]

1. For all practical purposes, all US pump gas is E10 (10% ethanol), so some level of EtOH is safe for all vehicles, for all fill ups. That number is actually above 10, but I don't think it is entirely known if it is 20, 30, 40, etc. Limitations could arise from either chemistry (as per below), fuel system capacity or tune limitations.

Swamp2, very nice work, hours, and energy on the app and OP on thread discussion.

Not sure for other parts of the Country being 10% ethanol for 91/93 pump fuel; but ethanol mix was a big Iowa Corn campaign push for years before adopted by Nation and Car Manufactures. That campaign was such heated discussion over the years, that Pump 91 and 93 were left as no blend. Many fuel stations in Iowa that offer either 91 & 93 pump fuel specifically state "No Ethanol blend".

Based on 91 being no ethanol, does that change your App's calculation if I blend E85?

Sponsored