Fox Live Valve vs Icon CDEV

[djscoutmaster]

How well does the Icon CDEV Electronic shock technology compare to the Fox Live Valve tech?


I’ve been an F150 Raptor guy for years, but when I saw the Icon Stage 8 Package for the Bronco (with icon CDEV shocks), I wondered how it compared to Fox Live Valve. Live valve has been standard on the Bronco Raptor since 2019, and it is respected as a great technology to level up high-speed offroading.

I hope to attract experts on this topic to respond and make a good technical comparison of the information. Maybe @Dusty at ICON would share more technical details or an @Administrator that has spend time talking with ford/Fox engineers?

Some thoughts to compare

1. Icons' explanation of the technology on their site seems to suggest it only controls compression, while Fox has recently added a "Dual Live Valve" for f150 and UTVs that controls compression and rebound.
2. Fox Live Valve uses "g-sensors" (or accelerometers) & shock position sensors, while Icons CDEV only uses G-sensors
3. CDEV can adjust in less than 40ms, and Fox has said it monitors sensors 500 times per second but only adjusts "multiple times per second"
   

The big questions I have

• How well does the Icon CDEV Electronic shock technology compare to the Fox Live Valve tech?
• How would a stock Bronco Raptor compare to a wildtrack with icon stage 8 suspension?

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[Bschurr]

I am no expert but there is no way you can get the off road performance & long travel from an electronic shock as compared to live valve.

 

[Baja Bronco]

I am no expert but there is no way you can get the off road performance & long travel from an electronic shock as compared to live valve.

Totally disagree. I run both, with a caveat. I run on my F150 Raptor 3.0 Live Valves, with the SDI EClik System (the caveat). Pretty much incredible on or off road. You can tune your shocks to your liking. Along with brakes, tire size, towing, and other things.

I run the ICON CDEV on my Bronco, and it’s the same way, only difference is ICON’s system uses your phone, instead of a gauge to tune. And the phone has to be an iPhone, and I had a Droid when it was installed, LOL. You can tune to on or off road.

Electronic tuning to shocks is big in off road racing. Most teams put in countless hours including Menzies, Rob Mac, Justin Lofton, etc.

I’m not sure if SDI makes a system yet for the Bronco Fox setup? If they do, might be the way to go money wise, as you have the shocks already on a Bronco. The ICON Stage 8 is pricey, but worth it.

Either system is head and shoulders above anything else out there now, IMO.

 

[djscoutmaster]

I am no expert but there is no way you can get the off road performance & long travel from an electronic shock as compared to live valve.

Totally disagree. I run both, with a caveat. I run on my F150 Raptor 3.0 Live Valves, with the SDI EClik System (the caveat). Pretty much incredible on or off road. You can tune your shocks to your liking. Along with brakes, tire size, towing, and other things.

I run the ICON CDEV on my Bronco, and it’s the same way, only difference is ICON’s system uses your phone, instead of a gauge to tune. And the phone has to be an iPhone, and I had a Droid when it was installed, LOL. You can tune to on or off road.

Electronic tuning to shocks is big in off road racing. Most teams put in countless hours including Menzies, Rob Mac, Justin Lofton, etc.

I’m not sure if SDI makes a system yet for the Bronco Fox setup? If they do, might be the way to go money wise, as you have the shocks already on a Bronco. The ICON Stage 8 is pricey, but worth it.

Either system is head and shoulders above anything else out there now, IMO.

My exsperience is similar to yours that electronic shocks are a game changer and almost cheating

I'm curious to hear more about the on/offroad difference with live valve on your f150 raptor vs icon CDEV on your bronco.

- does the icon system get as soft and hard as the live valve?
- does icon react as fast as your eclick?

- would you say a bronco with icon CDEv stage 8 is 70 or 80% the capability of a raptor?​

 

[Baja Bronco]

My exsperience is similar to yours that electronic shocks are a game changer and almost cheating

I'm curious to hear more about the on/offroad difference with live valve on your f150 raptor vs icon CDEV on your bronco.

- does the icon system get as soft and hard as the live valve?
- does icon react as fast as your eclick?

- would you say a bronco with icon CDEv stage 8 is 70 or 80% the capability of a raptor?​

Tough to compare, apples to oranges. The Raptor is an off road truck, designed for it. The Bronco is a shoe-box. The BRaptor might be a little better, but can’t be compared to a Raptor. Raptors are low, wide and stable with 14” of travel. The Bronco is boxish, sits high (with different suspension) and far less travel, about 9”?

The ICON system does react with regard to getting hard or soft like the live valves. And let’s not forget, Fox Live Valve are electronic shocks.

No, I personally don’t think anything is as fast as SDI’s EClik system. If you watch their videos, they say they get the shock to react up to 500 times a second, compared to 200 times a second stock.

I would think 60 - 70% capable of a Raptor. You can drive harder and push harder with a Raptor, at least IMO. I don’t push my Bronco that hard, I don’t think it’s wise, with stability and tracking.

That being said, the Bronco is fun as Hell to go off road with! But an owner has to be honest with their self with how they drive, and how many times they go. Driving on the beach or fire roads, stuff like that, you don’t need better suspension, bigger tires, etc. Driving Baja, Johnson Valley, Primm, yeah then all that stuff is worth it. Once again, everything is subjective and dependent on budget.

 

[djscoutmaster]

I don't plan to get rid of my f150 raptor but after driving a friends wildtrack with bilstien shocks I was shocked how small, nimble, fun and comfortable the bronco was compared to my raptor with fox race series shocks. However it was very easy for me to find the limits of the suspension in the bronco.

When I put fox race series shock on my raptor daily driving went out the window becuase its so much more stiff. (I have a gen 1 raptor). I was hoping icon stage 8 with cdev would still keep soft ride for daily driving while extending the capability of a bronco at high speed off-road. Similar to how well stock live valves do for all raptors.

 

[Dusty at ICON]

I'll offer my thoughts since I was tagged by the OP but with the caveat that I am no expert on this, even though I work for Icon. I'm just the guy who relays information about new products to this board, so I fully admit that I'm not the best person to conduct an argument about shock technology even though I work for a suspension company.

That said, I will offer this. It's hard to make up for the wider track width and longer travel that the Braptor has, to make any sort of a fair comparison against it with a stock-geometry non-Raptor Bronco. The best shocks in the world probably can't make up for it. On top of that, the Fox shocks with Live Valve on the Braptor are some great shocks. That's one reason we haven't developed a bolt-on system for the Braptor--because it would be hard to improve on what's already there.

Fox's live valve system has the benefit of being integrated into the vehicle's electronics. I don't own a Braptor but it's my understanding that the Goat Modes on it also make adjustments to the shocks through the live valve system. That would be next to impossible to do with a stand-alone, portable system like our CDEV. That said, CDEV is fully user-configurable, and also reacts to gyro inputs near-instantly. So my guess is that, apples to apples if all else were equal (suspension geometry, shock travel, static valving in the shock piston, etc.), it would probably be hard to pick a winner between the two. It would probably be something akin to drag racers spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on some small engine modification to shave 1/100th of a second off their quarter mile time. Sure, it's "faster", but is it really something that makes a discernable difference in the driving experience?

As I've said, I'm not an expert on any of these technologies. But I do have the same expertise anyone else on this board has, in the form of a butt in the seat. I've driven lots of Broncos with lots of different suspension setups. And the ICON CDEV system makes a night-and-day difference for any Bronco (with the exception of Braptor) versus it's stock form. But if we're bench-racing and arguing over milliseconds, I will kindly defer to those who know more about the technological minutiae than I do.

 

[Gotchaa]

I am planning to get the cdev installed soon on SAS Wildtrack, looking forward to sharing the differences, I do hope the soft mode will be good enough for crusing around town

 

[Baja Bronco]

I am planning to get the cdev installed soon on SAS Wildtrack, looking forward to sharing the differences, I do hope the soft mode will be good enough for crusing around town

You’ll love “normal mode” when it’s set to the softest setting!

 

[djscoutmaster]

You’ll love “normal mode” when it’s set to the softest setting!

How soft is “normal mode” compared to stock wildtrack suspension around town?

 

[Baja Bronco]

How soft is “normal mode” compared to stock wildtrack suspension around town?

Don’t know, can’t compare, I’ve never been in a Wildtrack. Normal mode, like off road mode has 10 settings, 1 - 10. Obviously 1 is the softest. That’s what I run, along with 37s. You still feel stuff, but it’s very minimal. You have to remember, it’s a Bronco, not a Benz.

Off road, I’m usually around 8, to absorb bigger hits, running fast. When I’m in rocky slow stuff, I’ll dial the suspension down, possibly anywhere from 1 - 3. It’s fun to change while driving.

 

[Gotchaa]

Don’t know, can’t compare, I’ve never been in a Wildtrack. Normal mode, like off road mode has 10 settings, 1 - 10. Obviously 1 is the softest. That’s what I run, along with 37s. You still feel stuff, but it’s very minimal. You have to remember, it’s a Bronco, not a Benz.

Off road, I’m usually around 8, to absorb bigger hits, running fast. When I’m in rocky slow stuff, I’ll dial the suspension down, possibly anywhere from 1 - 3. It’s fun to change while driving.

Finally getting it installed, picking it up today so I will report back what differences I notice.

Any other insight on settings would be great

 

[Baja Bronco]

Finally getting it installed, picking it up today so I will report back what differences I notice.

Any other insight on settings would be great

Main thing, make sure when they install, you’re level at all 4 corners, no front or rear rake. Pretty easy to do yourself, but they should set it up perfect from the get go. Have a tape measure or something to go on when you get there.

Hopefully you have an iPhone? If so, download the ICON app. You’ll need it to set your shocks up. All pretty easy, fun to fool around with it for both on and off road.

If you have any questions about anything, pm me.

 

[Gotchaa]

Main thing, make sure when they install, you’re level at all 4 corners, no front or rear rake. Pretty easy to do yourself, but they should set it up perfect from the get go. Have a tape measure or something to go on when you get there.

Hopefully you have an iPhone? If so, download the ICON app. You’ll need it to set your shocks up. All pretty easy, fun to fool around with it for both on and off road.

If you have any questions about anything, pm me.

I didn’t measure it, but they want me to come back after 500 miles for a torque check and I will check it with them then. I think I got raised about 2 inches in the front on a SAS and less in the back. I stayed on the 35s for now, but it does feel like learning limits again when doing rugged terrain.

So I updated the firmware, ran the calibration right away.. On the ride home from the shop, I set it from normal 2s to 1s and then put the corner control all the way up. To me it seems like this allows you to corner and it does a good job of preventing roll, like the sway bar doesn’t even factor in. I like this because I don’t have sway bar disconnect and I added the Walker End links that give it some extra travel as they are like shocks. The walkers did loosen up the cornering on street driving with more body roll. It seems now I can stiffen up the suspension for cornering and it nullifies the Walker end link/sway bar roll. Impressed so far, I have a lot of windy roads where I drive.

So I did about 63 miles today up in Big Bear, took a fast run on 3N16 and got some air and felt really stable, nothing to crazy but enough to know this was entirely a new Bronco drive feel. It was fun, and I plan on trying it out at Johnson Valley soon. . I just feel like you can go over dips at a faster speed and feel more stable and in control.

I am still trying to figure out how the app works. So I put it in the preset off-road mode, which looked like a 4 front and 4 back. It was fine for most of the road I was doing.

However, when we hit White Mountain trail, it is rated a black diamond, and had areas that were 19-20 degree hill grades with loose rocks and narrow roads, as well as some areas to get around some small rocky ledges. When I wanted to change settings it didn’t connect right away, and I decided to just focus on the road, assuming it would maintain my last setting. So bluetooth connectivity takes a minute it seems and I wish there was a way to toggle it to connect without going into iphone bluetooth settings. I never did that. I believe next time I am just going to have it connected and leave it open.

What I want to know is what the recommended settings are for rock climbing vs standard off road mud/ruts….I am sure its subjective to driving style but would like to know what people are doing with settings that have this who have experimented on different terrain.

Also I am curious how the CDEV auto adjustments work. Is this just marketing BS or is it actually a thing? I don’t see any setting that says “auto” so how and when is it evaluating your terrain and self adjusting if you are using a preset? Is there a way to control this, or is it always going to override your preset? I would hope not.

I have to say I could not find anything on Icon’s site about the control features and how to use each, they have the worst search engine on their website. Not sure if there was a paper manual that came with it, because well I never saw the box lol.

So far I am impressed. Looking forward to hear recommendations.

 

[Baja Bronco]

Glad you like it, and are learning how it works. Don’t know if I’ll be much help with rock climbing, as I don’t do it. When in Baja, and we get into really rocky sections where naturally you slow down, I soften up the suspension, maybe to a 3. Then when we get going again, I usually run at an 8.

The auto adjustment IMO, is just the valving reacting to the situation you’re in. Say you have the shocks set at 5, that’s for maximum absorption for the hit. When you’re driving down the road, that’s not needed, so the valving will compensate. Could be more. I have a similar system in my Raptor truck. SDI EClik. The EClik has a gauge (wish the ICON system did). The gauge is a pic of a truck with numbers at all 4 corners. If you’re set at 5, when you accelerate, brake, or drive hard through turns, you see the numbers go up to a 6, 7, 8, whatever, especially the outside shocks as they are stiffening to absorb the load. When the load lessens, the numbers go back to 5. Best I can explain it.

No manual to speak of. I guess ICON figures the app is self explanatory, which it kind of is. I fooled around with it, like you’re doing, but once I found my settings, I rarely go into the app. Just to go into off road mode, or run a diagnostic check. One time I found a shock wasn’t registering, there was dirt in the pickup.

I would still recommend checking / measuring all 4 corners. You want them as close as possible, with little to no rake, either front or rear.

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