Damage while using winch on improperly installed Rough Country High Mount

[orion]

I did not read the directions I took for granted they had you drill, sleeve and bolt through. So yeah, I think for the argument, it would be single shear, 4 times.

I took this when I was contemplating a plan of action when doing the IC. I would say same all the way through.

I did look at it when I put my IC on. The frame has ridges/dimples in it as a crumple zone. I am not engineer but I can say that they look like crumple zones to me.

I took this pic because I have a JKS high clearance kit to put on and I needed to see how close it would be to my proposed winch mount bracket. The JKS kit goes to about the 4 1/2 inch mark in the pic, just after the second ridge/dimple back.

I know welding plates to this will not be a good thing if I get in a crash but I would rather have the peace of mind when I am in the woods using my winch to get me home than worry about how much damage it will do if I wreck the Bronc. That is just me. The Bronc is not a DD'er for me I have my F-150 for that.

What if you incorporated your frame reinforcements with the JKS max tire clearance kit??? I got the kit and am wanting to build my own F&R bumpers and this might be an idea...

Like take the outer LOD reinforcements bracket example, but a DIY version that could weld to the JKS body mount!

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[BAUS67]

What if you incorporated your frame reinforcements with the JKS max tire clearance kit??? I got the kit and am wanting to build my own F&R bumpers and this might be an idea...

Like take the outer LOD reinforcements bracket example, but a DIY version that could weld to the JKS body mount!

Yes, that is the basic idea. I wanted to make sure I did not go too far back and interfere with the JKS mount. For the record I have thought about just welding the JKS mount on instead of bolting it on.

 

[Chrome_Pony]

Switched my front bumper choice from JCR to Warn based on the brackets.

 

[chtucker]

Switched my front bumper choice from JCR to Warn based on the brackets.

I like the Warn brackets but it creates one of the biggest fat chin lips of all the bumpers out there

 

[Tex]

I was looking at the LOD Install instructions, and they aren't double shear at all, they are using 4 bolts and nuts into the frame rails per side...

https://lodoffroad.com/assets/pdfs/BFT2100 Bronco 2021 Front Bumper Frame Tie Brackets.pdf

Yeah, good catch, I was going off the photo posted here.

However, on this bracket, it certainly appears to be a through bolt based on the nut and threads on the other side:

So, four bolts in single shear or two bolts in double shear? That's kind of a question without a good answer. I don't think you'd be compressing the frame rails all that much even with two bolts, especially with the bumper bolts wanting to keep the bracket straight. It would take a lot of force to deform the crumple zone in the frame rails, given that's not the weak plane (it should be just as strong as a non-crumple zone in that direction) and the bracket would be spreading so much of that pressure out already.

I know welding plates to this will not be a good thing if I get in a crash but I would rather have the peace of mind when I am in the woods using my winch to get me home than worry about how much damage it will do if I wreck the Bronc. That is just me. The Bronc is not a DD'er for me I have my F-150 for that.

Thing is, no matter which method you use to reinforce your winch to prevent bending the frame ends, it's going to affect how the chassis deforms during an impact. Whether you weld and reinforce the crumple zones or build a sub-frame that ties into the front crossmember and other areas of the frame to bypass the crumple zones, the effect will be the same in that it won't deform as well as it would from the factory. Even the hidden winch I have that doesn't affect that part of the frame is going to negatively affect deformation, simply because there's more crap there and it's going to push into the front crossmember when the crumple zones do their job. It's a compromise we have to make when altering any offroad vehicle, all just depends on what you're comfortable with.

 

[redone17]

Thing is, no matter which method you use to reinforce your winch to prevent bending the frame ends, it's going to affect how the chassis deforms during an impact. Whether you weld and reinforce the crumple zones or build a sub-frame that ties into the front crossmember and other areas of the frame to bypass the crumple zones, the effect will be the same in that it won't deform as well as it would from the factory. Even the hidden winch I have that doesn't affect that part of the frame is going to negatively affect deformation, simply because there's more crap there and it's going to push into the front crossmember when the crumple zones do their job. It's a compromise we have to make when altering any offroad vehicle, all just depends on what you're comfortable with.

That brings up my question about how the hidden winch mounts and it’s weak points. I’ve been dorking out on this thread since it started since this is all new to me. But, I wasn’t affording a new bumper when mine came with the modular (one of the reasons I chose BD) and not a fan of the underbite - the hidden was the only choice at the time. Exploring trails solo a majority of the time - I needed some piece of mind - but, threads like this are interesting to me to learn fail points and what to look for if/when something goes wrong.

 

[Tex]

That brings up my question about how the hidden winch mounts and it’s weak points. I’ve been dorking out on this thread since it started since this is all new to me. But, I wasn’t affording a new bumper when mine came with the modular (one of the reasons I chose BD) and not a fan of the underbite - the hidden was the only choice at the time. Exploring trails solo a majority of the time - I needed some piece of mind - but, threads like this are interesting to me to learn fail points and what to look for if/when something goes wrong.

Well, the RC hidden mount has four basic tie-in points...the lower frame rails where the recovery points are located, and then the front crossmember where the steering rack and a-arms are bolted on. The recovery points are in a single shear arrangement, while the crossmember points are in straight tension which is the strongest configuration for a bolt. Indirectly, it also ties into the RC front bumper via bash plate, but that wouldn't account for a whole lot of additional strength. One could also tie into the winch tray with a skid plate bolted to the crossmember and other points to really strengthen the mount itself where it probably needs it the most. When you use the winch, the bottom of that tray where the winch is bolted to is trying to pull forward, and all of the tie-in points are located above the winch line, so it's putting a bending moment on that tray. If you bolt a skid plate to that tray, and then bolt the skid plate to the bottom of the front crossmember and other places further back, then that skid plate will be able to eliminate that bending moment on the tray.

As it is, I think it's plenty strong enough, and it would take some serious effort to see any detrimental effects to it by winching...you're more likely to shear off the winch mounting bolts holding it to the tray as opposed to damaging the tray itself. It's never a bad idea to over-engineer stuff though.

 

[zuke]

I did not read the directions I took for granted they had you drill, sleeve and bolt through. So yeah, I think for the argument, it would be single shear, 4 times.

I took this when I was contemplating a plan of action when doing the IC. I would say same thickness all the way through.

I did look at it when I put my IC on. The frame has ridges/dimples in it as a crumple zone. I am not engineer but I can say that they look like crumple zones to me.

I took this pic because I have a JKS high clearance kit to put on and I needed to see how close it would be to my proposed winch mount bracket. The JKS kit goes to about the 4 1/2 inch mark in the pic, just after the second ridge/dimple back.

I know welding plates to this will not be a good thing if I get in a crash but I would rather have the peace of mind when I am in the woods using my winch to get me home than worry about how much damage it will do if I wreck the Bronc. That is just me. The Bronc is not a DD'er for me I have my F-150 for that.

Nice, informative Pics!

I don't think the twisiting forces are a huge issue with what we're talking about here, which is the primary reason for doing double shear setups (Tie Rods, Drag Links) so I really think the 4 Single shears are going to be fine.

I already have the JKS Kit installed and if I remember right, it doesn't sit flush to the sides of the frame even if you grind the crash bar mount flat. I'll double check that and try to take a picture to match the one where you measured for it this evening. I think if you try to weld the JKS mount, you will have to do a lot of fill weld.

As to the safety aspect, We've cut off crash bar mounts, which is already gonna screw with the deceleration programming of the air bags, I don't think reinforcing what's supposed to be a crumple zone is gonna be that big a difference .

 

[zuke]

Yeah, good catch, I was going off the photo posted here.

However, on this bracket, it certainly appears to be a through bolt based on the nut and threads on the other side:

So, four bolts in single shear or two bolts in double shear? That's kind of a question without a good answer. I don't think you'd be compressing the frame rails all that much even with two bolts, especially with the bumper bolts wanting to keep the bracket straight. It would take a lot of force to deform the crumple zone in the frame rails, given that's not the weak plane (it should be just as strong as a non-crumple zone in that direction) and the bracket would be spreading so much of that pressure out already.




Thing is, no matter which method you use to reinforce your winch to prevent bending the frame ends, it's going to affect how the chassis deforms during an impact. Whether you weld and reinforce the crumple zones or build a sub-frame that ties into the front crossmember and other areas of the frame to bypass the crumple zones, the effect will be the same in that it won't deform as well as it would from the factory. Even the hidden winch I have that doesn't affect that part of the frame is going to negatively affect deformation, simply because there's more crap there and it's going to push into the front crossmember when the crumple zones do their job. It's a compromise we have to make when altering any offroad vehicle, all just depends on what you're comfortable with.

Honestly, I'd kind of already dismissed that bracket setup with the single through bolt as an option..

I think the 4 Single Shear bolts of the LOD are more than sufficient for this application, and will most likely stay with a setup like that.

I do think a through bolt will deform the frame in this area. I have a TJ hardcore wheeler I'm in the process of building, I actually made the frame myself from 5x2 .125" Wall Steel Tube. I made a Mid Cross Member for the rear 4 link mounts, and put 4 bolts through the frame and a 3/16" plate on each side of the cross member, when I first torqued those bolts through my frame (80ftlbs), I got visible distortion of the frame. I took them back off and sleeved the holes.

I'm fairly sure my home built frame is stronger than the Bronco frame horns, Although the dimples would add some resisitance to deformation. I'm not at all worried about deformation from a safety aspect, as you noted, we gotta compromise, I'd be more worried about compromising the powder coat, and without a sleeve, I think the rails would deform even more over time. I also think it doesn't matter, I'll almost certainly go with a single shear or welding

I've got a Fab Fours Stubby Winch Bumper right now, It doesn't add any reinforcement, just uses the factory harware. It does keep the winch a lot closer to the frame rails (closer to the grill, and lower in the front) than the JCR and RC solutions, and I've done a few pretty hard pulls that were "down" towards the ground without any noticeable change to the angles of the bumper, But @Tricky Dick 's experience here definitely has me wanting to strengthen things!

 

[BAUS67]

Nice, informative Pics!

I don't think the twisiting forces are a huge issue with what we're talking about here, which is the primary reason for doing double shear setups (Tie Rods, Drag Links) so I really think the 4 Single shears are going to be fine.

I already have the JKS Kit installed and if I remember right, it doesn't sit flush to the sides of the frame even if you grind the crash bar mount flat. I'll double check that and try to take a picture to match the one where you measured for it this evening. I think if you try to weld the JKS mount, you will have to do a lot of fill weld.

As to the safety aspect, We've cut off crash bar mounts, which is already gonna screw with the deceleration programming of the air bags, I don't think reinforcing what's supposed to be a crumple zone is gonna be that big a difference .

I've got some time after work tonight and planned on a bit of "tinkering". I need to get those IC shutter tabs cut off and the winch up in place to see how things look.

 

[Deleted User 5719102]

Shit, if it was me doing all this figuring, I'd be looking at mounting a steel plate straddling the frame rails under the radiator. Then mounting the winch upside down to hide it and still use my bumper as intended. But that's just me LOL! I think they call this OCD or something or another.

 

[Mudlight]

These? https://lodoffroad.com/products/2021-bronco-black-ops-front-bumper-frame-tie-in-brackets

Yes!

 

[Mudlight]

You’ll have to cut the LOD reinforcements. They don’t fit with the MOD bumper in the stock form. I installed them when I did my RC mount. The bolts they send lookk like the cheapest you can get. I re used the ford bolts. At least they have a rating stamped on them. The lower loop hits the bumper when trying to install. Unless they changed the design. I still feel they were a good addition. I can’t for the life of me believe JCR doesn’t have a reinforcement yet.
As for a complete replacement bumper a lot of them bolt to the same stock plates. So do have you cut the plates off and mount directly to the frame. I did not distort anything with the LOD brackets. And have winched myself and other over obstacles but they were not buried by any means. The ford reinforcement for their winch setup are far superior imo but I’m not sure they can be had separately. The bolts are shouldered on the ford setup so you can’t crush the frame when tightening.

Were you able to use the factory main bumper mount bolts with the RC high winch mount and the LoD brackets? They look like they might be too short? I have the RC high winch mount installed as well.

 

[Tricky Dick]

I do think a through bolt will deform the frame in this area.

It's inevitable with any open box section, even if it's not perceptible. Getting those bolts to stay torqued would be a battle as well.

I'm going to make an attempt to pull the winch and bumper off tonight after work and assess the situation. My brackets are scheduled to ship Friday.

 

[vrtical]

Shit, if it was me doing all this figuring, I'd be looking at mounting a steel plate straddling the frame rails under the radiator. Then mounting the winch upside down to hide it and still use my bumper as intended. But that's just me LOL! I think they call this OCD or something or another.

given the horns are a crumple zone, I would agree.

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