ADV Production Modular Hardtop!

[Toccoa]

Moments later…

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[DriveAllNight]

In Book Stores Now

 

[pvpmtprince]

Since refunds are not happening, who's going to be the first one to show up at ADV with a truck to collect a set of set of front fenders, rear quarter panels, and a carbon fiber ram air hood? Really, how could John say no?

That's only $5,350, so maybe grab a Xerox machine on the way out to square up the difference.

This is hilarious and also hand me some popcorn!

 

[GotWake]

Not defending ADV in any way, but for months they were offering refunds. I got mine back with no issues at the end of April. But if 50% of the money went to invoices to APG… APG should be handing money back too… but nope. ADV at least gave some of the money back, but I haven’t heard of APG doing anything. Well s*** we didn’t even know APG was the one responsible for sourcing the manufacturing until a few days ago.

I think they did plan to have a product. But, this worked just like any Ponzi scheme. They had money coming in from those million freaking ads all over social media to pay out for a while. I doubt it was a huge percentage. Fake it until you make it. Once they realized it was in a flat spin, dropping like a rock, it was time to bail.

 

[GreenMtnBronco]

I think they did plan to have a product. But, this worked just like any Ponzi scheme. They had money coming in from those million freaking ads all over social media to pay out for a while. I doubt it was a huge percentage. Fake it until you make it. Once they realized it was in a flat spin, dropping like a rock, it was time to bail.

I don't think they intentionally created a ponzi scheme

1. ADV entered into an agreement with APG to distribute tops.
2. APG agreed to build the tops for 50% of the tooling/ setup costs and then supply tops at x$ per top
3. ADV went out and built a pool of customers raising their half of the $ by preselling tops
4. APG could never get the production right and produce a top that would fly with the customers.
5. APG likely had 100% of production costs plus other expenses of their business funded by ADV (what were those invoices for and where did the $4million actually go?
6. ADV early customers became impatient or didnt like the product as it developed (I personally bailed once it became an assembly required erector set. Got my money & an anderson top in my hands after only 8 weeks and no money down!)
7. ADV new customers were funding refunds of people like me, and that's when the ponzi scheme started.

 

[KillerPenz]

I don't think they intentionally created a ponzi scheme
ADV entered into an agreement with APG to distribute tops.

APG agreed to build the tops for 50% of the tooling/ setup costs and then supply tops at x$ per top

APG likely had 100% of production costs plus other expenses of their business funded by ADV (what were those invoices for and where did the $4million actually go?

I agree with most of what you said, but the above 3 lines confuse me.

1. ADV is contracted by APG to sell APG's top.... think about that for a second. If I become a reseller for say LG OLED tv's, I'm NOT giving LG money for research and development of said tv's, I'm just re-selling them. So that right there tells me that ADV F'd themselves with said agreement.

2. See #1. Great contract for APG, crap for ADV. But if said contract is true, then bad look for APG as many people paid ADV for this top and now many people are out $6k+. So if APG was always the manufacturer, and ADV was the re-seller, then the people who dropped money to ADV should be entitled to this top IF/when it becomes available.

3. This seems to be true from the outside looking in. Exactly what was the $4mil for? And leads us back to #1 & #2. WTF?

No matter how I look at this, I'd never consider being a customer of either company, nor would I recommend them!

 

[2023bronco]

Here's what I'd like APG to tell everyone:

(1) Is APG planning to manufacture and sell these tops while the litigation proceeds?
(2) Did APG receive roughly $4 million from ADV?
(3) As for all the people who aren't being refunded by ADV, will APG ship tops to ADV for distribution or directly to the people who bought them?
(4) If APG says No to #3, why? Especially if APG says Yes to #2.

Here's what I'd like LB to say:

 

[MsPickles]

Since refunds are not happening, who's going to be the first one to show up at ADV with a truck to collect a set of front fenders, rear quarter panels, and a carbon fiber ram air hood? Really, how could John say no?

That's only $5,350, so maybe grab a Xerox machine on the way out to square up the difference.

Don't forget a printer as well.

 

[Dusty]

Moments later…

Hey now! leave the Greatest Living American out of this shit show LOL
(but I do admit those memes are not unfunny)

 

[FtWorthBronco]

So I assume APG's defense is going to be that ADV agreed to fund half the development costs - but they did not tell ADV to raise the money by taking pre-orders from customers or even ask where ADV's funding came from - so that is all on ADV to refund the people they got the money from to start.

And ADV will continue with the story that if APG had delivered on "promises" made - they would not have been in a financial crisis to start.

If ADV raised $8 million and gave APG roughly half of that - are we to assume the other $4 million or so left was used to refund people that got tired of waiting?

That would actually make this a Ponzi scheme by federal definition and contractors go to jail for doing that type of thing all the time... using one customers deposits to finish or pay damages on other customers projects...

Unfortunately for ADV - my guess is all APG will be found guilty of is being bad at designing, developing and manufacturing a new product. I would think its likely ADV is found guilty of committing fraud selling something that didn't exist and then leading people on for two years that it was always "two weeks out"

 

[indio22]

So I assume APG's defense is going to be that ADV agreed to fund half the development costs - but they did not tell ADV to raise the money by taking pre-orders from customers or even ask where ADV's funding came from - so that is all on ADV to refund the people they got the money from to start.

And ADV will continue with the story that if APG had delivered on "promises" made - they would not have been in a financial crisis to start.

If ADV raised $8 million and gave APG roughly half of that - are we to assume the other $4 million or so left was used to refund people that got tired of waiting?

That would actually make this a Ponzi scheme by federal definition and contractors go to jail for doing that type of thing all the time... using one customers deposits to finish or pay damages on other customers projects...

Unfortunately for ADV - my guess is all APG will be found guilty of is being bad at designing, developing and manufacturing a new product. I would think its likely ADV is found guilty of committing fraud selling something that didn't exist and then leading people on for two years that it was always "two weeks out"

APG might try to silo any funds they got from ADV, in a bucket that would give cover in terms of shielding how the money was spent. For example, claiming not a penny was spent on development of the hardtop.

But that technicality is not going to wash with people who lost thousands arguably funding the development. That's something APG (and LiteBrite) have not fully thought through, as they still talk up how great the hardtop is and suggest it will still materialize for sale in the future.

 

[FtWorthBronco]

APG might try to silo any funds they got from ADV, in a bucket that would give cover in terms of shielding how the money was spent. For example, claiming not a penny was spent on development of the hardtop.

But that technicality is not going to wash with people who lost thousands arguably funding the development. That's something APG (and LiteBrite) have not fully thought through, as they still talk up how great the hardtop is and suggest it will still materialize for sale in the future.

Not sure why anyone that gave ADV money has any level of claim with APG. The only party that has a claim against APG is ADV.

Unless I missed a class in school - there is no subrogation concept that supports this case. Not to say someone can't file, but my experience is will get dismissed pretty quickly unless sales agreement people signed with ADV lists APG as a counterparty in the sale or at least had some level of contingency terms stating the sale was only valid upon successful delivery of the top by APG to ADV.

There is a ton of case law in the automotive industry protecting parts manufacturers from extended financial liability due to the failure of the "distributor" - pretty much look up any recall for a major auto manufacturer where the part in question was actually manufactured by a third-party - then look who is responsible for paying for the repairs costs and compensating the end consumer for loss of vehicle access (rental car costs, etc).

It is not the original parts manufacturer for the individual piece but the auto company that sold the car that has responsibility to the end consumer. Same theory here.

APG will hide behind the fact that they never sold a single hardtop to anyone - so no end customer has a claim against them for failure to deliver. The only agreement they had was with ADV and thus ADV will be the only party capable of recovering damages.

The LItebrite thing might make some people that hate them happy to talk about - but is their hardtop exactly the same product? was it 100% complete and ready for market when they got it or a "prototype"? talk is cheap - so saying its great is truly irrelevant. If it was the same top others paid for and ready for primetime delivery - that might be a different issue. I am guessing its a partially done concept top in the end and will not matter.

 

[indio22]

Not sure why you think anyone that gave ADV money has any level of claim with APG. The only party that has a claim against APG is ADV.

Unless I missed a class in school - there is no subrogation concept that supports this case. Not to say someone can't file, but my experience is will get dismissed pretty quickly unless sales agreement people signed with ADV lists APG as a counterparty in the sale or at least had some level of contingency terms stating the sale was only valid upon successful delivery of the top by APG to ADV.

There is a ton of case law in the automotive industry protecting parts manufacturers from extended financial liability due to the failure of the "distributor" - pretty much look up any recall for a major auto manufacturer where the part in question was actually manufactured by a third-party - then look who is responsible for paying for the repairs costs and compensating the end consumer for loss of vehicle access (rental car costs, etc).

It is not the original parts manufacturer for the individual piece but the auto company that sold the car that has responsibility to the end consumer. Same theory here.

APG will hide behind the fact that they never sold a single hardtop to anyone - so no end customer has a claim against them for failure to deliver. The only agreement they had was with ADV and thus ADV will be the only party capable of recovering damages.

The LItebrite thing might make some people that hate them happy to talk about - but is their hardtop exactly the same product? was it 100% complete and ready for market when they got it or a "prototype"? talk is cheap - so saying its great is truly irrelevant. If it was the same top others paid for and ready for primetime delivery - that might be a different issue. I am guessing its a partially done concept top in the end and will not matter.

I wasn't talking about the legalities. No amount of "it's all legal" is going to protect the reputations of these companies and their boneheaded decisions. Or the sh*t storm coming if APG ends up offering this top for sale.

Hey folks, sorry you lost all that money earlier on our non-existent hardtop. But ... it was all legal ... so sorry not sorry. And guess what, it's here now, and it's so great, our influencers love it, show me the money.

 

[FtWorthBronco]

I wasn't talking about the legalities. No amount of "it's all legal" is going to protect the reputations of these companies and their boneheaded decisions. Or the sh*t storm coming if APG ends up offering this top for sale.

Hey folks, sorry you lost all that money earlier on our non-existent hardtop. But ... it was all legal ... so sorry not sorry. And guess what, it's here now, and it's so great, our influencers love it, show me the money.

very good point - I don't expect either ADV or APG to make it through this mess as a going concern.

However I also expect there to be two new LLC's to be formed with unrelated names but producing exactly the same type products as both companies currently make....and people won't care beyond hopefully being smart enough to not pay upfront for a product that no one has ever seen again. The one thing I have learned is "moral and ethical outrage" from consumers lasts right up to the point that said outraged person can save money or get something they want from a company they were mad at before.

ADV has done it before and I am guessing so has APG.

 

[indio22]

very good point - I don't expect either ADV or APG to make it through this mess as a going concern.

However I also expect there to be two new LLC's to be formed with unrelated names but producing exactly the same type products as both companies currently make....and people won't care beyond hopefully being smart enough to not pay upfront for a product that no one has ever seen again. The one thing I have learned is "moral and ethical outrage" from consumers lasts right up to the point that said outraged person can save money or get something they want from a company they were mad at before.

ADV has done it before and I am guessing so has APG.

Quite possibly. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out, in the event this top ever sees the light of day.

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