ADV Production Modular Hardtop!

[Dusty]

Moments later…

Hey now! leave the Greatest Living American out of this shit show LOL
(but I do admit those memes are not unfunny)

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[FtWorthBronco]

So I assume APG's defense is going to be that ADV agreed to fund half the development costs - but they did not tell ADV to raise the money by taking pre-orders from customers or even ask where ADV's funding came from - so that is all on ADV to refund the people they got the money from to start.

And ADV will continue with the story that if APG had delivered on "promises" made - they would not have been in a financial crisis to start.

If ADV raised $8 million and gave APG roughly half of that - are we to assume the other $4 million or so left was used to refund people that got tired of waiting?

That would actually make this a Ponzi scheme by federal definition and contractors go to jail for doing that type of thing all the time... using one customers deposits to finish or pay damages on other customers projects...

Unfortunately for ADV - my guess is all APG will be found guilty of is being bad at designing, developing and manufacturing a new product. I would think its likely ADV is found guilty of committing fraud selling something that didn't exist and then leading people on for two years that it was always "two weeks out"

 

[FtWorthBronco]

APG might try to silo any funds they got from ADV, in a bucket that would give cover in terms of shielding how the money was spent. For example, claiming not a penny was spent on development of the hardtop.

But that technicality is not going to wash with people who lost thousands arguably funding the development. That's something APG (and LiteBrite) have not fully thought through, as they still talk up how great the hardtop is and suggest it will still materialize for sale in the future.

Not sure why anyone that gave ADV money has any level of claim with APG. The only party that has a claim against APG is ADV.

Unless I missed a class in school - there is no subrogation concept that supports this case. Not to say someone can't file, but my experience is will get dismissed pretty quickly unless sales agreement people signed with ADV lists APG as a counterparty in the sale or at least had some level of contingency terms stating the sale was only valid upon successful delivery of the top by APG to ADV.

There is a ton of case law in the automotive industry protecting parts manufacturers from extended financial liability due to the failure of the "distributor" - pretty much look up any recall for a major auto manufacturer where the part in question was actually manufactured by a third-party - then look who is responsible for paying for the repairs costs and compensating the end consumer for loss of vehicle access (rental car costs, etc).

It is not the original parts manufacturer for the individual piece but the auto company that sold the car that has responsibility to the end consumer. Same theory here.

APG will hide behind the fact that they never sold a single hardtop to anyone - so no end customer has a claim against them for failure to deliver. The only agreement they had was with ADV and thus ADV will be the only party capable of recovering damages.

The LItebrite thing might make some people that hate them happy to talk about - but is their hardtop exactly the same product? was it 100% complete and ready for market when they got it or a "prototype"? talk is cheap - so saying its great is truly irrelevant. If it was the same top others paid for and ready for primetime delivery - that might be a different issue. I am guessing its a partially done concept top in the end and will not matter.

 

[FtWorthBronco]

I wasn't talking about the legalities. No amount of "it's all legal" is going to protect the reputations of these companies and their boneheaded decisions. Or the sh*t storm coming if APG ends up offering this top for sale.

Hey folks, sorry you lost all that money earlier on our non-existent hardtop. But ... it was all legal ... so sorry not sorry. And guess what, it's here now, and it's so great, our influencers love it, show me the money.

very good point - I don't expect either ADV or APG to make it through this mess as a going concern.

However I also expect there to be two new LLC's to be formed with unrelated names but producing exactly the same type products as both companies currently make....and people won't care beyond hopefully being smart enough to not pay upfront for a product that no one has ever seen again. The one thing I have learned is "moral and ethical outrage" from consumers lasts right up to the point that said outraged person can save money or get something they want from a company they were mad at before.

ADV has done it before and I am guessing so has APG.

 

[GreenMtnBronco]

I agree with most of what you said, but the above 3 lines confuse me.

1. ADV is contracted by APG to sell APG's top.... think about that for a second. If I become a reseller for say LG OLED tv's, I'm NOT giving LG money for research and development of said tv's, I'm just re-selling them. So that right there tells me that ADV F'd themselves with said agreement.

2. See #1. Great contract for APG, crap for ADV. But if said contract is true, then bad look for APG as many people paid ADV for this top and now many people are out $6k+. So if APG was always the manufacturer, and ADV was the re-seller, then the people who dropped money to ADV should be entitled to this top IF/when it becomes available.

3. This seems to be true from the outside looking in. Exactly what was the $4mil for? And leads us back to #1 & #2. WTF?

No matter how I look at this, I'd never consider being a customer of either company, nor would I recommend them!

i may not have it all right, and typed that before having coffee!

I have the ADV fenders & hood, they are actually a good product, If i were doing it again, I'd want the APG fenders, but yes, both companies are clearly not above board. I want to think John at ADV is genuine, but I look at the lies he told me by email and that I once told him in response that he "was talking out of both sides of his mouth," which was when I asked for my refund (and got it)

 

[Rydfree]

Damn , I don't even need an aftermarket hardtop but read this entire thread anyway. The only thing I got out of it is Googling something called Litebrite and getting a bunch of results of some midget bowing a cute blonde over that had a pink buttplug up her ass. Are we talking about the same Litebrite ? Maybe I should turn my search filter back on ,lol.

 

[evgenyvasenev]

Quite possibly. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out, in the event this top ever sees the light of day.

I could be wrong, but someone posted a few docs where it's already happening? For ADV at least...

 

[GreenMtnBronco]

The LItebrite thing might make some people that hate them happy to talk about - but is their hardtop exactly the same product? was it 100% complete and ready for market when they got it or a "prototype"? talk is cheap - so saying its great is truly irrelevant. If it was the same top others paid for and ready for primetime delivery - that might be a different issue. I am guessing its a partially done concept top in the end and will not matter.

The litebrite top was probably part of the early batch of 10 or so tops that showed up early and they were just waiting for a youtuber to promote the tops.. and somehow it happened.

 

[GreenMtnBronco]

very good point - I don't expect either ADV or APG to make it through this mess as a going concern.

However I also expect there to be two new LLC's to be formed with unrelated names but producing exactly the same type products as both companies currently make....and people won't care beyond hopefully being smart enough to not pay upfront for a product that no one has ever seen again. The one thing I have learned is "moral and ethical outrage" from consumers lasts right up to the point that said outraged person can save money or get something they want from a company they were mad at before.

ADV has done it before and I am guessing so has APG.

both will be bankrupt. ADVs estate will have a claim on $/tops from APG, likely ahead of any auction of APGs assets. All top buyers will be unsecured creditors of ADV and inline ahead of or behind and more senior creditors. some investment firms that by BR claims will contact everyone and likely offer them 10-25 cents on the dollar given that at least half the cash was given to APG and the rest used to fund ADV operations.

 

[userdude]

very good point - I don't expect either ADV or APG to make it through this mess as a going concern.

However I also expect there to be two new LLC's to be formed with unrelated names but producing exactly the same type products as both companies currently make....and people won't care beyond hopefully being smart enough to not pay upfront for a product that no one has ever seen again. The one thing I have learned is "moral and ethical outrage" from consumers lasts right up to the point that said outraged person can save money or get something they want from a company they were mad at before.

ADV has done it before and I am guessing so has APG.

I'm not holding my breath, but if APG shows they were in good faith on the verge (and capable) of delivering tops and ADV "jumped the gun", a lot of the onus gets put back on ADV's (mis)management of the pre-orders years in the making.

 

[GreenMtnBronco]

I'm not holding my breath, but if APG shows they were in good faith on the verge (and capable) of delivering tops and ADV "jumped the gun", a lot of the onus gets put back on ADV's (mis)management of the pre-orders years in the making.

Did APG put limitations on the number of tops ADV could sell? the distribution agreement doesn't say "don't send us too much business."

Still wondering why the ADV suit didnt include the invoices it paid as exhibits. that's a bit odd.

 

[Ninjak]

Still wondering why the ADV suit didnt include the invoices it paid as exhibits. that's a bit odd.

Something I stated earlier. If you are going to post an entire case file on an internet forum to prove or send the image of wrongdoing but yet leave out things that are important to the case, such as written invoices and receipts, instead we see a written list of anyone could written out, it does seem a bit odd.

 

[KillerPenz]

Something I stated earlier. If you are going to post an entire case file on an internet forum to prove or send the image of wrongdoing but yet leave out things that are important to the case, such as written invoices and receipts, instead we see a written list of anyone could written out, it does seem a bit odd.

Just throwing this out there, but didn't we get this posted by a forum user? And not actually ADV?

If I were going to take YOU to court because YOU didn't get me a product that I sold pre-orders on, why would I give my CUSTOMERS a copy of any of this?

 

[GreenMtnBronco]

Just throwing this out there, but didn't we get this posted by a forum user? And not actually ADV?

If I were going to take YOU to court because YOU didn't get me a product that I sold pre-orders on, why would I give my CUSTOMERS a copy of any of this?

I think the suit is in public domain and was DLd by a member of the public and posted. if you are going to mention invoices in a law suit, why wouldn't they be listed as exhibits? they did after all include two documents related to this joint venture: the Memorandum of Understanding & the distribution agreement. Why not the invoices? seems incomplete

note, I am not a lawyer, but play one on the internet

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