What the hell is Ford doing?

[CV428]

I agree with almost everything CV428 said, except this:

Consumer demand for increasingly electronic and feature-heavy vehicles has driven manufacturers to prioritize (poor and rushed) software integration, advanced (glitchy) infotainment systems, and (janky, unreliable, annoying) semi-automated driver aids, often at the expense of mechanical simplicity and long-term durability.

Since I was "on the other side" of the market for quite some time (I was a dealer), I don't think consumers ever "demanded" computerized vehicles, big touch screens, and the myriads of other, useless features of today's cars ("lane keeping" anyone?). There are two ways of making profit on cars,....."front end", and the "back end". Competition is cutthroat in this business, and OTD prices NEED to be competitive to generate volume. Cars have to have lowest possible OTD price on the market. So how to stay in business? The answer is in the "back".

Automakers are spending fortunes to engineer cars that the average mechanic (without factory training) cannot work on them. They also carefully calculate the "service life" of ALL components and offer "warranty" based on that. Just look at posts where people say that something broke "as soon as it was out of warranty". On the top of that, there are parts, tools, and systems that only dealers have access to, so the average owner will not be able to perform any repairs.

US manufacturers are way behind on this, in comparison to Euro manufacturers. Mercedes, BMW, Porche, and the Italians are way ahead of the curve on this. They figured it out first. Try to do ANYTHING on a Ferrari (example) without "specialized, dealer only tools" and you'll find out. Mercedes is not far behind.

"Long term reliability" is NOT in anyone's best interest. IF the today's vehicle would be produced to last 500K miles or more (like a MBZ diesel of yesteryear), market would shrink to the point of driving MANY manufacturers out of business. Add to that the working generation of today that grew up on computers and video games, and you've got the picture. People of today don't want to keep the same vehicle for ten or more years. It's not that they "demand" gadgets, but gadgets are what sells to the youngsters.

[don't take my wall of text as disagreement, this is awesome discussion!]

So, I see where you are coming from. I believe we're actually on the same page and just circling the same point. You are right, consumers never pushed and said "make vehicles we can't work on that are over-computerized!" They voted with their money (or more accurately, the bank's money financed to them). They got a taste of a feature and refused to get another vehicle without that feature, ratcheting up their desires and lifestyle inflation.

I agree 100% on the "engineering to be painful to maintain" aspect. The McFlurry machine scandal is a testament to that. There's a reason I didn't buy a John Deere tractor, too.

I agree and disagree on the "Long term reliability is not in anyone's best interest" statement though. There are massive pros and cons to longer lifecycles and more reliable componentry. There's reason why I refuse to replace my fridge- the compressor in it was US made, and it'll run forever. The cost of fixing my ice maker would be almost as much as buying a new fridge that will last all of 3 years, so I make it the old fashioned way. I value the compressor lasting more than fancy features on a new fridge. If consumer items are more reliable, the manufacturing is short lived. The negative only applies if manufacturing cannot reposture itself. 60 second takt time caters to a throwaway culture, and it comes at a massive cost. A boring market is actually friendlier to the consumer, but the manufacturers are too focused on maintaining layers of unnecessary business bloat to self-regulate their size. I got thrown off a team 9 years ago when I questioned "hey, if the analysts say we'll lose 40% of department efficiency by doing this, why the hell are we still doing this?" For the same reasons consumers don't like to scale back on features, businesses don't like flattening their structures.

The truth is, nothing is without consequence. If cars could be $15k new, safe, simple, and last to 500k, but some massive profit-hungry Fortune 500 companies would have to shrink, would that be a bad thing? It would require cultural change, but I believe it would be better for all. Younger generations would be able to repair their own vehicles rather than paying a local repair shop to outsource to a dealership, plus repair costs would be lower. MTBF has diminishing returns too. Even if an alternator still only lasts 100k-120k, but it's a common item with volume to support it, and ease of replacement, the overall cost to the consumer is lower. For the same reason industry is standardizing on USB-C, perhaps auto manufacturers should be forced to use similar components and support them for longer than 2 years.

60 years ago, you could get a fridge in 12 different colors. Same fridge. Same internals. Same everything, just a different color. It was the same fridge for years, same tooling, same manufacturing process. They kept the tooling until it was worn out, then either repaired or replaced it, and continued. Those businesses survived by diversifying their offerings instead of focusing on unlimited options on a single product line. The same could happen today, but it would require consumers to humble themselves. That's why it'll never happen.

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[CarmeloS]

Are you asking a rhetorical question, or an actual one?

 

[bassist]

Completely baffled by Ford’s lack of flexibility in the customization of a 25’ Bronco. I was one of the first to order a 21’ on reveal night. Got my Bronco, absolutely loved it, but due to the unforeseen circumstances of life, I had to let it go a few years later. Recently, I’ve been looking to get back into one, and damn man…. My exact original build (a base in ruby red with the Sasquatch package, and the added hardtop this time around) nearly touches 55 grand, and I don’t even have the V6 as an option.
I played around with the Big Bend build, and that nearly touched 60 grand; I had to add the goofy-looking $2500 free-wheeling package just to get the gloss black hardtop and if you want the Sasquatch package they force you to tack on the Black Diamond Package.
I always wanted a Badlands, so come to find out Im forced to take on the Sasquatch package if I want the 10 speed auto and the sway bar disconnect isn’t standard? Gtfoh. Ford literally said with no shame, “Let me charge you more for less.” 🫩

The only way it changes is for people to not buy.

 

[Jdyount]

@mods I described "someone in power" using the color of a fruit and I get my post deleted but some guy on here was telling me I prob beat my wife and kids, talked about how he was gonna try and F my wife and that's ok??? Soft man, really soft.

 

[CV428]

I also agree, it is definitely a two-way street.

A lot of it is also "different strokes for different folks" and it's impossible to make everyone happy. The amount of people who have showed up on this forum looking for features like BlueCruise or power seat memory. Heck the amount of people who have bought the Lux package specifically because it has adaptive cruise control or a heated steering wheel is much higher than I would have ever anticipated.

People want the things, but the things are expensive and people complain. So you take away the things and people complain that it doesn't have the things. And of course you can't just make everything à la carte cause then production costs go up.

No idea what it's like being on a team for a vehicle manufacturer that has to make these choices, but I imagine there are lots of spirited internal arguments over it. Probably a no-win situation.


Feel that one.

The good news is price of protein has gotten to the point where I'm starting to do veggie-only dinners. So ya know, unexpected health benefits.

The bad news is when I do buy meat, I typically buy chicken because it's the most affordable. And I've run out of different ways I can prepare chicken that I'm not sick and tired of.

(ps. Chicken dinner ideas welcomed)

Man I am loving this discussion... All good points.

I don't want to be a hypocrite- I've dealt with lifestyle inflation and thankfully recognized it before it ruined me. You mentioned a heated steering wheel. I used to ride motorcycles, and had the "give the least features and get the most horsepower" mentality. That is, until I got a bike with heated grips. Holy moly, what a game changer. "I get it now." But it comes at a cost, and it's one more thing that can break. Everything has a consequence.

People want the things, but the things are expensive and people complain. So you take away the things and people complain that it doesn't have the things. And of course you can't just make everything à la carte cause then production costs go up.

No idea what it's like being on a team for a vehicle manufacturer that has to make these choices, but I imagine there are lots of spirited internal arguments over it. Probably a no-win situation.

Perfectly said.

I have been in those meetings with OEMs. Logic rarely wins and there's a lot of yelling. I have stories, but I can't share them, they'll hunt me down with C&Ds. It's one of many reasons why I chose to leave the automotive world. It's present in all industries to a degree, but automotive struck a nerve with me. Despite the best problem solving and efficiency models being based and derived in the automotive world, it's arguably the least efficient industry.

 

[Smocaine]

I don't like the '25 changes, and hope it isn't too indicative of a trend. I wish I had that digi-dash but my build would be impossible now.
I guess we got in while the getting was good?

 

[Valhalla]

2 door, 4.7 v8 naturally aspirated locked sway disco advance 4x4 wash out interior for 40k... that's all Im saying is why don't they build this...

 

[JT58Bronc]

It's terrible how much prices have gone up. I had to shell out everything I had to get my 2022 2 door Sasquatch with V6. Priced in 2019 when I ordered it was 38K and I got it for 40K at the time of delivery. The sad thing is I barely afforded it back then- and my salary is only a little more now than it was back then. Today at 60K Bronco would not even be on my radar, just unaffordable, period. Even used. I'm lucky to have my 2022. It will be all I can do to hang on to it to afford insurance and gas- and I don't have a payment. And I get 23 MPG in it. I don't know how 60K can be paid by anyone today with insurance and 15 MPG. Unless you make really good salary and/or have 1500 a month payment.

 

[Valhalla]

Oh 15" travel on 40s.... full skids...

 

[jbacon47]

"Consumer demand for increasingly electronic and feature-heavy vehicles"

I disagree that is it consumer driven at all. Feature bloat is the result of middle-managers carving out a space for themselves at the company. Managers constantly push features that increase production costs and grow their teams/resumes/influence. Executives green light this stuff because companies have so much money to burn. The only other option is to increase stock dividends or employee wages. Markets hate dividends because they signal lack of "growth". And wages are the last thing a company wants to increase... So what does the company do? They throw the money back into the business on gimmick feature X...

 

[Jdyount]

I have a few points:

First, cars on average do last longer now than in the 60s and 70s. The advancement in technology of fluid additives alone is partially responsible, but with all the sensors on modern vehicles you have much better control over those systems. Yes mechanics need to be much more technical now, but that's every aspect of the world we live in today. Think of what a maintenance professional in a manufacturing facility needs to know vs 50 years ago.

People (most people) will always want nicer things, we've all grown up with post WWII consumerism as a part of our everyday lives. The American Dream, having it all, the family, the nice house and car, has driven us generation after generation for 75 years. What are we even talking about, we all know the game....

As to features, I for one, really enjoy the comforts. I love my heated steering wheel and seats in the winter. I wish like hell I had cooled seats in my Bronco. I love the big touch screen and 360 cam, it's great off-roading having those extra views. I like the adaptive cruise control, it take SO much stress off of you in a 10 hour road trip. I wish there was lane centering (lane keeping is useless). I LLLOOOOVVVEEE the removable hard top and removable doors and all of the off-road features.

Ultimately If my only concern was transportation, I'd buy a shit-box KIA, or better yet a BLAND Toyota Corolla for longevity. I am happy to pay for something I love to use. Would I love for it to be cheaper, sure, but I am not going to compromise by giving up features my family enjoys.

For reference, I'm 40, old side of millennial generation, grew up as computer technology exploded but also old enough to remember the rotary dial phone we had at home as a young kid. I also grew up poor, like on food stamps poor. I've worked hard for what I have and I enjoy it. I don't go buy a nice car because my neighbor has one. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Lincoln Navigator or Mercedes G Wagon.

 

[crenca]

Great conversation!

Out of curiosity I went to Ford's site and built the Bronco I purchased a little less than a year ago, a MY24 SASed Big Bend with no internal/eletronic upgrades (other than aux switches and 'signature' led headlamps). Not exactly the same (I am forced into a painted MIC top instead of plain black, etc.) but it actually comes out about $1k less than my sticker was, assuming a dealer would actually sell it to you for that. Maybe because I am part of the minority who avoid tech goodies (e.g. adaptive cruise), automatics, upper level trims?

Bezo's is starting a company that is claiming it will build you a small and $feature$ free truck for around $25k. At least he sees the consumer demand (even if it is a minority of present consumers). Problem is he is going EV and neither myself or a majority of other consumers are interested in the fad that is the EV powertrain, so he misses the mark

When/if Bezo's chooses to offer the same sort of product with an ICE (and make no mistake, ICE is the future), or some other manufacture does (Toyota maybe?), then and only then will we see a current counter cultural development in the automotive space...

 

[CV428]

"Consumer demand for increasingly electronic and feature-heavy vehicles"

I disagree that is it consumer driven at all. Feature bloat is the result of middle-managers carving out a space for themselves at the company. Managers constantly push features that increase production costs and grow their teams/resumes/influence. Executives green light this stuff because companies have so much money to burn. The only other option is to increase stock dividends or employee wages. Markets hate dividends because they signal lack of "growth". And wages are the last thing a company wants to increase... So what does the company do? They throw the money back into the business on gimmick feature X...

Consumer demand is multi-faceted. Part of it is reactionary addiction to market offerings, and then market chases that new addiction. Once people taste a few feature, they don't want anything without that feature, and suddenly it becomes a demand. Chicken and egg.

With that said, you bring up an excellent point. Feature bloat being driven by business bloat- I mentioned that elsewhere in this thread. Companies don't want to streamline properly, because that would result in thinned out management. To date, I don't know of anyone in a management or accounting role that has pointed to him/herself as the bloat, except for Hermes on Futurama

 

[indio22]

I like your analysis there.

I don't think the blame lay entirely with the consumer though. I admit, there's some truth to the fact that the industry (as a whole) will chase what the consumer wants, but there's also the flip side to that coin - consumers can only buy what is offered, and the Board Room is gonna certainly tilt what is offered to be in their favor every time. Consumers may be sliding down that direction, but I don't doubt for a minute that the industry is pushing them there too - making it accelerate all the faster.

I read several articles which indicated COVID taught some auto makers they could do better financially selling fewer vehicles at higher prices. Meaning they reduced volume by not chasing the low price buyers. Maybe that's one reason for higher prices and focus on the more upscale loaded versions?

 

[American Sender]

There are plenty of used Broncos for you to consider. Most aren't driven off road and are only relegated to pick-up/drop-off line at school and to fetch groceries to feed their obese kids.

What he is saying is check for excessive rear seat wear and tear.

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