Damage while using winch on improperly installed Rough Country High Mount

[huey]

I did not read the directions I took for granted they had you drill, sleeve and bolt through. So yeah, I think for the argument, it would be single shear, 4 times.

I took this when I was contemplating a plan of action when doing the IC. I would say same thickness all the way through.

I did look at it when I put my IC on. The frame has ridges/dimples in it as a crumple zone. I am not engineer but I can say that they look like crumple zones to me.

I took this pic because I have a JKS high clearance kit to put on and I needed to see how close it would be to my proposed winch mount bracket. The JKS kit goes to about the 4 1/2 inch mark in the pic, just after the second ridge/dimple back.

I know welding plates to this will not be a good thing if I get in a crash but I would rather have the peace of mind when I am in the woods using my winch to get me home than worry about how much damage it will do if I wreck the Bronc. That is just me. The Bronc is not a DD'er for me I have my F-150 for that.

yes - those ridges are the crumple zone

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[redone17]

Don’t want to thread jack too much - but, it seems like it’s a healthy conversation about the two RC options and strength. But, it looks like they changed the mount plate entirely since version 1 or 2 of the hidden winch that I have. Seems they are up to version 6. The plate is now 3 separate pieces. Thoughts on if that is a benefit or a weakness?

This is what’s bolted up in mine. I couldn’t find the old instructions saved anywhere. Maybe my MacBook. I’ll keep digging.

 

[swooshdave]

hmmm those brackets would overlap the crumple zone - I wonder how that would affect things during a collision if the bracket were welded onto the frame

If you are actually concerned about collisions you should never modify anything on your vehicle.

 

[swooshdave]

Don’t want to thread jack too much - but, it seems like it’s a healthy conversation about the two RC options and strength. But, it looks like they changed the mount plate entirely since version 1 or 2 of the hidden winch that I have. Seems they are up to version 6. The plate is now 3 separate pieces. Thoughts on if that is a benefit or a weakness?

This is what’s bolted up in mine. I couldn’t find the old instructions saved anywhere. Maybe my MacBook. I’ll keep digging.

The principal benefit is that it's easier to ship. And easier to manufacture.

 

[Tricky Dick]

hmmm those brackets would overlap the crumple zone - I wonder how that would affect things

Negatively. That's a decision we all have to make for ourselves.

 

[zuke]

hmmm those brackets would overlap the crumple zone - I wonder how that would affect things during a collision if the bracket were welded onto the frame

Although it's hard to find because it's within posts discussing other aspects, we've already talked quite about this.

The general consensus is that if you are going to play at the level where you need a solidly mounted winch that can do a safe and strong pull, You're also going to make a lot of other changes to the vehicle that will affect the safety in a collision (Lifts, Non stock Body mounts, cutting existing brackets and crash bars out). Even just replacing a factory bumper with aftermarket compromises that part of the safety systems.

If you want to play at the level most of the folks in this thread are playing at, you need to make compromises. If someone doesn't want to make this particular compromise, there is nothing wrong with that, Green and Blue trails can still be a lot of fun, substantially reducing the risk of getting stuck and needing to use a winch.

 

[zuke]

Don’t want to thread jack too much - but, it seems like it’s a healthy conversation about the two RC options and strength. But, it looks like they changed the mount plate entirely since version 1 or 2 of the hidden winch that I have. Seems they are up to version 6. The plate is now 3 separate pieces. Thoughts on if that is a benefit or a weakness?

This is what’s bolted up in mine. I couldn’t find the old instructions saved anywhere. Maybe my MacBook. I’ll keep digging.

Man that's a lot of bolts!

In the fact that it doubles the thickness of the sides by doubling the material, Better..

In the fact that it has a bunch of bolts, that will allow more adjustment/tweaking assembly to line up poorly drilled holes in the pieces, That's a wash.

In the fact that it has a bunch of Grade 3 or 5 bolts, flat washers and nuts to do the attaching, I'd call that a big negative.

I agree with @swooshdave, I think the primary reason for the change is so they can ship it in a smaller box. A secondary consideration for them was probably that it's easier to cover the known fitment issues with the three piece design then it was with the one piece.

Overall I think the v1/2 was better.

 

[huey]

Finally, I wanted to add a few shots of one of my TJ's Frame in this area... I don't want to start an arguement, But I love both Jeeps and Broncos, There are clearly some things that are better on the Jeep, and Better on the Bronco. Somebody said a manufacturer had told them the frame horns are about equivalent, and I gotta call BS on that.

The Bronco frame horns are made by taking a C-Channel Frame, and Boxing it in with a welded cap of thinner material, the TJ frame is made with and extruded and pressed single piece that is thicker material, pressed into the shape of the frame and seam welded. (Much the way HREW pipe is made); The TJ Frame extends well past the grill, and includes a "torque tube" welded into it. The extension provides a solid place to put a winch plate that is going to be pusking and pulling directly on the frame rails, with much less leverage than the Bronco setup

good eye catching the differences - I would like to add a few things for clarity
apologies for the incoming post but this is frame talk and I am a frame nerd!

The jeep JK & JL front mods both have similar designs. The extruded sections you refer to are called hydroformed sections. they are stamped press components but in a press with a die that uses water to help create complex features & shapes that traditional stamping dies can't do. There is no welding or seams of these rails after going thru the press, the parts start off as tubes, which will have a seam welder when the tube is constructed. Hydroforming allows the rail to have very specific and varying metal thickness throughout the rail - even though the tube is a common thickness when it starts.

The ford front mod is a fully boxed section by clam shelling two c channels(as you stated). Both the inner and outer part are the same gauge at the front horn, but the rails do vary in thickness. before the ford rails are stamped into the C shape they arrive at the press - this is called a blank. These particular blanks are called taylor welded blanks. They are essentially flat pieces of steel in varying thickness & steel types / properties that are edge welded to make one long piece. this allows ford engineers to get the exact characteristics they want and even save a bit of weight. Imagine the whole rail was one heavy gauge even though ford did not need that thickness the entire length. A taylor welded blank can yield similar characteristics as the hydroformed rails but potentially at a cheaper cost. The two C channels fit together one inside the other and are seam welded top & bottom.

The torque tube you referenced on the jeep is called the number 1 cross member - Jeep uses a small tube that is 46mm in diameter. Ford uses and stamped clamshell crossmember assembly that is drastically larger all around(roughly 84mm thick x 107mm tall). The ford design is much stiffer and stronger, but heavier.

The jeep and bronco are similar in strength - even with the obvious design differences. Yes there are differences but I would put the bronco front end up against the jeep any day. the problem revolves on how the winch was attached and as mentioned by others with only one bolt location. This creates a pivot point and well....we se the outcome

the solution is a better / proper winch mount. That will take some thought but I'm sure the group here is full of good ideas

 

[zuke]

good eye catching the differences - I would like to add a few things for clarity
apologies for the incoming post but this is frame talk and I am a frame nerd!

Excellent post, I really appreciated your knowledge dump!

 

[Tex]

Don’t want to thread jack too much - but, it seems like it’s a healthy conversation about the two RC options and strength. But, it looks like they changed the mount plate entirely since version 1 or 2 of the hidden winch that I have. Seems they are up to version 6. The plate is now 3 separate pieces. Thoughts on if that is a benefit or a weakness?

This is what’s bolted up in mine. I couldn’t find the old instructions saved anywhere. Maybe my MacBook. I’ll keep digging.

I have one of the later ones in three pieces. I'd say the single piece is probably the better design, as all the bolts in the 3-piece fit so tight in their respective holes that there's really no misalignment adjustments you can effectively make, you're relying on bolt joints to hold everything together (I decided to upgrade mine with grade 8 hardware), and you've also picked up 12 bolts that could potentially come loose over time. You also can't fit the Apex 12K in the 3-piece design unless you put the side bolts in afterward, which makes assembly and installation that much more awkward.

What I can't tell from your pic is if the single piece has the two additional rearward facing tabs for the bolts going into the crossmember. If yours doesn't, maybe that was the reason why they went with a 3-piece design, to better facilitate manufacture with those tabs that add a lot of strength to the structure (and giving the 3-piece a small edge over the single). If it has those tabs, well, I don't really see much of any benefit to separating the tray out in three pieces. Even with shipping, it wouldn't really make the box any smaller than the one mine came in, it was way bigger than necessary. Maybe it was more labor intensive to keep everything square making a single piece that required four 90deg bends (plus maybe two for the tabs?), as opposed to one piece that only needed two bends plus the two tabs, and two pieces that only needed one. Just a guess.

 

[huey]

Although it's hard to find because it's within posts discussing other aspects, we've already talked quite about this.

The general consensus is that if you are going to play at the level where you need a solidly mounted winch that can do a safe and strong pull, You're also going to make a lot of other changes to the vehicle that will affect the safety in a collision (Lifts, Non stock Body mounts, cutting existing brackets and crash bars out). Even just replacing a factory bumper with aftermarket compromises that part of the safety systems.

If you want to play at the level most of the folks in this thread are playing at, you need to make compromises. If someone doesn't want to make this particular compromise, there is nothing wrong with that, Green and Blue trails can still be a lot of fun, substantially reducing the risk of getting stuck and needing to use a winch.

understood - I missed those posts, but coming from the frame world wanted to add my .002. Doing so off road is no issue, I was thinking from a different angle - the legal one. If you drive a modified frame(especially in a safety crumple zone) on road and are in an accident with injuries to others, there are potential legal issues. If you drive this solely off road - well giddy up.

back to the topic hopefully the vendors / group here can come up with a solution

 

[huey]

If you are actually concerned about collisions you should never modify anything on your vehicle.

only safety / liability aspect

 

[BAUS67]

One last pic before the knife.......

Done........

Who needs those pesky IC shutters anyway. Honestly they could be reattached if needed.

With those out of the way got some more room now.......

So with the bumper on>>>>>>>>>not bad.

It is back far enough.

Still have some more nibbling to do and I will be able to tuck it in there a bit more.

I can axe a bit more of the upper part of the "pad" to give me some wiggle room.

You can see them a bit better without the winch in there.

@Bikeric The silver piece above the JKS HCK gets moved a little for the high mount IC kit. you can see the hole I had to drill plus it is turned around backwards. I don't think any of that would make a difference but just thought I would throw that in there.

Today I had to get some "brackets" for a crossmember at work and as it turns out is is about the same thing I had planned here. Just a simple "L" bracket off the inside of the frame and under the winch plate. The JKS will be on the outside.

 

[RC Bronco]

This thread is ridiculously informative to read start to finish. Thank you all for contributing to this for others to absorb

 

[BAUS67]

This thread is ridiculously informative to read start to finish. Thank you all for contributing to this for others to absorb

Not bad for a bunch of nerds, eh???

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