Bronco Raptor Fuel Octane

[JohnGalt]

Noticed the difference between what I usually run, Exxon or Sunoco and the times I bought mini market gas, for what it's worth...

Being in the North East there are more gasoline blenders the mini mart maybe getting lower quality gasoline or higher ethanol%. However, they are also just as likely to be buying from Sunoco, Exxon or other reputable refinery.

The clear difference will be additive package, but that is a long term benefit (eg cleaner injectors, valves) than a tank specific performance thing.

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[JohnGalt]

This is a very good write up, thanks for the informaiton!

While I don't feel the difference in power or any MPG improvement on 91 compare to 87, and I don't do towing at all, however, I live in a very cold area. December to end of February will be about -15 to -30 C ( -5 to -22 F), do I get any benefit for filling up with 91?
I do remote start my car and let it sit about 8-10 mins idle two times a day, and my commute to work is only 6km one way, which means coolant and oil temp are not running at the optimal temperature most of the time...

Sorry, I’ve never heard of any of any benefit from higher or lower octane in cold weather situations. But that may be my ignorance.

 

[FLSTFI Dave]

Being in the North East there are more gasoline blenders the mini mart maybe getting lower quality gasoline or higher ethanol%. However, they are also just as likely to be buying from Sunoco, Exxon or other reputable refinery.

The clear difference will be additive package, but that is a long term benefit (eg cleaner injectors, valves) than a tank specific performance thing.

Gas really branded until it is put on the Truck at the distribution center, that when each Brand has their specific additive package loaded on to the truck.

All crude coming out of Gulf of Mexico goes ashore in the same pipelines. It goes to various refineries, Exxon, Shell, BP and so on. From the refineries it goes back into pipelines to distribution centers.

Currently there are 21 different blends of regular used in the USA, it all depends on what the state requires.

The additive package is what your getting with Brand name, and Top Tier gas.

 

[swamp2]

Octane boosts power in engines TUNED to take advantage by making the fuel burn more slowly/evenly thus creating more efficient use of the energy content available. Thus premium and higher octane gasoline is best suited for high compression/boost and high temperature applications, where fuel economy is less important (like racing).

I know this is an older conversation but...

The primary effect of higher octane is to run more aggressive spark timing without causing preignition which is very damaging to an engine.

One wants the peak pressure of the combusting mixture to occur very close to TDC. If spark occurs too early potential work that could be done by the combusting mixture is lost to heat transfer and to the remaining compression itself, whereas if spark occurs too late potential expansion work is lost (piston is already moving down and decompressing the mixture).

But more important than either timing being a bit early or late is managing preignition which is very damaging to the engine - here the mixture can combust spontaneously, purely from the heat of compression, without/before the spark. Then combustion is fighting against the upward piston movement, peak pressure occurs while the piston is moving toward TDC and this makes large stresses in the internals. A higher octane fuel mixture can be compressed more without auto detonating as a result of the heat from compression (i.e. without spark).

Higher octance fuels do also burn more slowly, but again that not the primary effect around the performance benefits of higher octane.

 

[JohnGalt]

I know this is an older conversation but...

The primary effect of higher octane is to run more aggressive spark timing without causing preignition which is very damaging to an engine.

One wants the peak pressure of the combusting mixture to occur very close to TDC. If spark occurs too early potential work that could be done by the combusting mixture is lost to heat transfer and to the remaining compression itself, whereas if spark occurs too late potential expansion work is lost (piston is already moving down and decompressing the mixture).

But more important than either timing being a bit early or late is managing preignition which is very damaging to the engine - here the mixture can combust spontaneously, purely from the heat of compression, without/before the spark. Then combustion is fighting against the upward piston movement, peak pressure occurs while the piston is moving toward TDC and this makes large stresses in the internals. A higher octane fuel mixture can be compressed more without auto detonating as a result of the heat from compression (i.e. without spark).

Higher octance fuels do also burn more slowly, but again that not the primary effect around the performance benefits of higher octane.

I‘ve forgotten the context of the post, I agree with everything you wrote. I think we are saying the same thing, albeit my comment was a tad simplified!

 

[BDrool]

I know this is an older conversation but...

The primary effect of higher octane is to run more aggressive spark timing without causing preignition which is very damaging to an engine.

One wants the peak pressure of the combusting mixture to occur very close to TDC. If spark occurs too early potential work that could be done by the combusting mixture is lost to heat transfer and to the remaining compression itself, whereas if spark occurs too late potential expansion work is lost (piston is already moving down and decompressing the mixture).

But more important than either timing being a bit early or late is managing preignition which is very damaging to the engine - here the mixture can combust spontaneously, purely from the heat of compression, without/before the spark. Then combustion is fighting against the upward piston movement, peak pressure occurs while the piston is moving toward TDC and this makes large stresses in the internals. A higher octane fuel mixture can be compressed more without auto detonating as a result of the heat from compression (i.e. without spark).

Higher octance fuels do also burn more slowly, but again that not the primary effect around the performance benefits of higher octane.

After reading this thread, this is the most accurate as to what Octane is.

All gasoline has the same amount of BTU's per gallon. However, Octane is the measurement term used to describe, roughly, how much pressure and heat the gasoline can take before auto igniting aka. detonation.

If your engine is pinging and the ECU retarding of the spark can't fix it then a higher Octane is warranted. Otherwise, higher octane fuels are a waste of money. There are no power gains from the gasoline itself but, how much more fuel can be put into the engine safely to get the power needed.

The ECU will determine from the many sensors, the most efficient amount of fuel to use, whether it cuts power or adds power to maintain the safety of the engine.

Therefore, the difference of 87 to 103 octane, example, is nothing more than what the ECU determines what is safe for the engine. Not all engines can detect Octanes over 87 or even safely run octanes under 91/93.

 

[swamp2]

If your engine is pinging and the ECU retarding of the spark can't fix it then a higher Octane is warranted. Otherwise, higher octane fuels are a waste of money. There are no power gains from the gasoline itself but, how much more fuel can be put into the engine safely to get the power needed.

Thanks for the compliment. However...

Pinging (preignition) is very uncommon on any reasonably modern ECU (with knock detection) as they are so darn effective in making small and large adjustments in real time. Hearing and adjusting for pinging via timing or higher octane fuel is mostly a thing of the past.

And again, modern ECUs can generally accomdate a broad range of octanes, with the exception being high compression engines which naturally push on the preignition envelope. These can require 91/93 minimum for factory engines and higher octane for modified/race engines.

Lastly, it is much more about the timing of the spark than getting more fuel into the engine to maximize power. The engine (intake, valves, heads) will largely determine the maximum abount of mixture that can get into the engine (volumetric efficiency) then the spark timing, based on knock sensing, does its thing to deliver maximum safe power.

What I do not know is how agressively a cheap, modern, basic engine prioritizes maximizing power output. I also don't know what kind of knock sensor such and engine would use. My comments are largely about performannce oriented engines with advanced knock sensors.

 

[OG-Surfdog]

Over here we only get 92 for the highest octane available. I add octane booster like 104+ or Royal Purple booster.

 

[Internationalraptor]

I worked for a major multinational oil company for my entire career (although not in fuel formulation). If your stock engine is recommended for regular use regular. If you’re at altitude, towing and/or high temp that results in pinging then move to higher octane gasoline in those situations.

More important to your engine than buying unnecessary octane is the quality of the additive package added to the base gasoline. Using one of the “major” brands will get you that, but other oil companies are getting better additives (designated as Top Tier) over time (all gasolines are required to have some level of additive).

But if you perceive a benefit from running premium and money’s not an issue, run it. I’m not aware of any significant negatives.

Will running rec 90 harm it? It’s the same price as 93 premium around here.

 

[JohnGalt]

Will running rec 90 harm it? It’s the same price as 93 premium around here.

my understanding in “rec 90” is that it is ethanol free. I don’t foresee an issue with running that in your Raptor.

Being ethanol free is neither a bad or good thing, UNLESS your vehicle‘s engine was not designed for ethanol at all. However most (all?) modern cars (I lost track as a retired 6 years ago) could easily run E10/E20 without a warranty issue.

The reason the “rec 90“ is same price but lower octane is because Ethanol is cheaper than other octane increasing components. BUT while Ethanol is a fantastic octane booster, it has a lower caloric content compared to regular gasoline and the other components, therefore you would may see a very small mpg improvement with rec 90 over readily available 93.

another benefit would be ethanol and water are a bad in combination so where there is an increased possibility of getting water in your fuel system, rec 90 would be a safer bet Especially in marine applications.

Gasoline is a funny thing. It appears simple, but due to different engine applications, environmental regulations (which vary based on geography and season) and government subsidies it’s a really complex topic.

 

[thenewjs]

Shell V-Power® NiTRO+ Premium Gasoline

 

[Internationalraptor]

my understanding in “rec 90” is that it is ethanol free. I don’t foresee an issue with running that in your Raptor.

Being ethanol free is neither a bad or good thing, UNLESS your vehicle‘s engine was not designed for ethanol at all. However most (all?) modern cars (I lost track as a retired 6 years ago) could easily run E10/E20 without a warranty issue.

The reason the “rec 90“ is same price but lower octane is because Ethanol is cheaper than other octane increasing components. BUT while Ethanol is a fantastic octane booster, it has a lower caloric content compared to regular gasoline and the other components, therefore you would may see a very small mpg improvement with rec 90 over readily available 93.

another benefit would be ethanol and water are a bad in combination so where there is an increased possibility of getting water in your fuel system, rec 90 would be a safer bet Especially in marine applications.

Gasoline is a funny thing. It appears simple, but due to different engine applications, environmental regulations (which vary based on geography and season) and government subsidies it’s a really complex topic.

Well since I’m planning on storing it during the winter I think the rec90 should be the ticket.
Thanks for the consult.

 

[Internationalraptor]

my understanding in “rec 90” is that it is ethanol free. I don’t foresee an issue with running that in your Raptor.

Being ethanol free is neither a bad or good thing, UNLESS your vehicle‘s engine was not designed for ethanol at all. However most (all?) modern cars (I lost track as a retired 6 years ago) could easily run E10/E20 without a warranty issue.

The reason the “rec 90“ is same price but lower octane is because Ethanol is cheaper than other octane increasing components. BUT while Ethanol is a fantastic octane booster, it has a lower caloric content compared to regular gasoline and the other components, therefore you would may see a very small mpg improvement with rec 90 over readily available 93.

another benefit would be ethanol and water are a bad in combination so where there is an increased possibility of getting water in your fuel system, rec 90 would be a safer bet Especially in marine applications.

Gasoline is a funny thing. It appears simple, but due to different engine applications, environmental regulations (which vary based on geography and season) and government subsidies it’s a really complex topic.

One more question.

my GF told me that oil was rebranded fósil fuel by Rockefeller way back in the day and it’s not Formed from rotting organic material from the dinosaurs. Make sense to me. No way there was that much organic material to make the amount of oil that’s on the earth.

 

[BDrool]

Thanks for the compliment. However...

Pinging (preignition) is very uncommon on any reasonably modern ECU (with knock detection) as they are so darn effective in making small and large adjustments in real time. Hearing and adjusting for pinging via timing or higher octane fuel is mostly a thing of the past.

And again, modern ECUs can generally accomdate a broad range of octanes, with the exception being high compression engines which naturally push on the preignition envelope. These can require 91/93 minimum for factory engines and higher octane for modified/race engines.

Lastly, it is much more about the timing of the spark than getting more fuel into the engine to maximize power. The engine (intake, valves, heads) will largely determine the maximum abount of mixture that can get into the engine (volumetric efficiency) then the spark timing, based on knock sensing, does its thing to deliver maximum safe power.

What I do not know is how agressively a cheap, modern, basic engine prioritizes maximizing power output. I also don't know what kind of knock sensor such and engine would use. My comments are largely about performannce oriented engines with advanced knock sensors.

Actually, the engine timing, degrees BTC. can only be adjusted by the ECU so much before the engine runs like crap or not at all. The ECU will put it into safe/limp mode to save the engine. FA engines are even more susceptible to ping than NA. Compression and heat together will go beyond timeable parameters, at that point, higher octtane is all that will help.

If these ecoboost engines are used to the point that they overheat, they will ping and then the power will be cut, no ifs ands or buts. This is programed into the ECU and it will be done by cutting turbo pressure and fuel flow. Timing can only be adjusted so much, regardless oh the modernization of the engine. That is why minimum octane ratings are specified by the manufacturer.

if 87 is the min for the BR for a Dailey Driver but as soon as it gets hot from towing or deep sand, plan on running higher octane. No engineer has been able to engineer out all the limitations of an ICE and never will, it's physics.

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