Weak High Level Input for Kicker 500.1 (Subwoofer Amp)

[BloodDiamond]

Replaced my factory non-B&O subwoofer and amp last night. I cut the factory amp high-level input wires and wired them to the Kicker 500.1 input as instructed, twisted the + wires together and the - wires together and attached to the single pair +/- output of the factory wires. I was in a rush for time last night, so I did a quick verification the amp was turning on properly, and that the subwoofer was creating sound. I noticed the subwoofer was weak, but I did not have time to investigate until this morning.

Now, I finally had a minute for tuning. I downloaded the Kicker test tones and started with the gain-match -10db tone. I cannot get the gain light flicker even with the amp set to maximum gain. The subwoofer is not audible anymore either.

Now, I can't tell if the subwoofer is even functioning at all. It definitely was working (barely) last night, but today it seems like it's not getting any input signal.

Last night, I switched the amp from high-level input to low-level input and the bass improvement was noticeable, but still weak. So I know for a fact I had a signal last night.

I also have my subwoofer remote knob turned all the way up. I tried it disconnecting the remote as well. No help.

Before I tear my interior apart again to check those high-level connections, I wanted to see if anyone else has had this issue and what the resolution was?

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[Rydfree]

Replaced my factory non-B&O subwoofer and amp last night. I cut the factory amp high-level input wires and wired them to the Kicker 500.1 input as instructed, twisted the + wires together and the - wires together and attached to the single pair +/- output of the factory wires. I was in a rush for time last night, so I did a quick verification the amp was turning on properly, and that the subwoofer was creating sound. I noticed the subwoofer was weak, but I did not have time to investigate until this morning.

Now, I finally had a minute for tuning. I downloaded the Kicker test tones and started with the gain-match -10db tone. I cannot get the gain light flicker even with the amp set to maximum gain. The subwoofer is not audible anymore either.

Now, I can't tell if the subwoofer is even functioning at all. It definitely was working (barely) last night, but today it seems like it's not getting any input signal.

Last night, I switched the amp from high-level input to low-level input and the bass improvement was noticeable, but still weak. So I know for a fact I had a signal last night.

I also have my subwoofer remote knob turned all the way up. I tried it disconnecting the remote as well. No help.

Before I tear my interior apart again to check those high-level connections, I wanted to see if anyone else has had this issue and what the resolution was?

I assume you checked the tone setting on the stereo itself to make sure the bass hasn't gotten turned down . Also where are you getting the remote turn on for the amp ? The factory harness is 6v I think and can cause issues it you don't use a relay of some sort to get it to 12v . I just used the auto turn on feature of the Kicker 500 and it works fine for me .

 

[BloodDiamond]

I assume you checked the tone setting on the stereo itself to make sure the bass hasn't gotten turned down . Also where are you getting the remote turn on for the amp ? The factory harness is 6v I think and can cause issues it you don't use a relay of some sort to get it to 12v . I just used the auto turn on feature of the Kicker 500 and it works fine for me .

I reset all tones back to neutral (middle) as per the 500.1 instructions. I could crank the bass back up, but I'm not expecting it to compensate enough (I'm like 10X lower than I should be), but I will definitely try it.

So far the factory amp remote turn-on wire seems to be working fine. The green light turns on when I turn on my stereo so I assume this means the amp turns on and off as it should.

 

[BloodDiamond]

I reset all tones back to neutral (middle) as per the 500.1 instructions. I could crank the bass back up, but I'm not expecting it to compensate enough (I'm like 10X lower than I should be), but I will definitely try it.

So far the factory amp remote turn-on wire seems to be working fine. The green light turns on when I turn on my stereo so I assume this means the amp turns on and off as it should.

I just turned up the Bass to maximum in my tones setting and it's working a lot better now, but still weak.

Right now I have amp gain MAX, remote knob MAX, bass boost MAX and it sounds about the same, or maybe slightly weaker than the factory subwoofer. I have the crossovers set correctly (low-pass set to 160 Hz, high-pass aka subsonic set to about 20 Hz).

Would a low-level to high-level converter improve the signal? I'd prefer not to have the dials maxed out just to hear the bass....

 

[Johnny Mo]

A couple questions - what speaker did you go with as a replacement? Why did go twisted pair of + and - (that might be answered by the which sub question) - Probably need to run 12 ga - maybe get away with 14 ga to the sub from the amp.

I'm running my Key 500.1 off the line inputs and my gain is at maybe 11 oclock and my volume knob is set depending on music and recording quality - between 11 oclock and 2 oclock. Running a Kicker Comp R 8" Dual Voice Coil 4 ohm - wired parallel to show 2ohms at the amp - and thus 300 watts. And it's got plenty of thump.

 

[BloodDiamond]

I went with a SKAR 6.5" 4 ohm DVC. I was going to go with the Kicker, but I too am running at 2 ohms, and I felt the 200 watt RMS handling of the SKAR was better paired than the 150 watt RMS of the Kicker. The 500.1 should be putting out 300 watts RMS for both of us. My speaker wiring is identical to your setup (parallel).

The factory amplifier wiring has only a single pair of high-level inputs (one positive and one negative). The 500.1 amp has a 2-channel input, so 4 wires in total with the RCA's cut-off. On the 500.1 pigtail, I twisted both + wires together (to the single + factory wire) and did the same for the - wire. This was how Kicker advised to do it.

I'm wondering however, if by splitting a single channel high-level output into a 2 channel input, perhaps it is weakening the input signal by half? Is the 500.1 amp smart enough to take advantage of only 1 channel input (say...left channel)? I suppose I could just cut 2 wires on the pigtail and see if it helps...

 

[RagnarKon]

If are using the factory wiring that previously was plugged into the factory amp... that's actually a low-level (line-level) signal. So if you have the 500.1 switched to expect a high-level (speaker-level) input the volume will be REALLY low.

Need to just click that toggle button to switch it to line-level.

Also where are you getting the remote turn on for the amp ? The factory harness is 6v I think and can cause issues it you don't use a relay of some sort to get it to 12v . I just used the auto turn on feature of the Kicker 500 and it works fine for me .

Can also use something like a PAC Audio TR-4 in combo with the factory wiring.

If you listen to a lot of talk radio like I do, that is usually preferred over the DC setting on the 500.1. Otherwise the amplifier will occasionally turn off when there isn't much signal.

 

[BloodDiamond]

If are using the factory wiring that previously was plugged into the factory amp... that's actually a low-level (line-level) signal. So if you have the 500.1 switched to expect a high-level (speaker-level) input the volume will be REALLY low.

Need to just click that toggle button to switch it to line-level.

Can also use something like a PAC Audio TR-4.

If you listed to a lot of talk radio like I do, that is usually preferred over the DC setting on the 500.1. Otherwise the amplifier will occasionally turn off when there isn't much signal.

That makes sense as to why it sounds much better when I switch the amp to low-level input. It's still way too low, but I feel better knowing it is in-fact a low-level input.

I find it odd that Ford gave me a factory subwoofer, running a dedicated low-level input, but gave me zero subwoofer adjustability on the infotainment system. If it has a low-level signal, then how hard would it have been to make it adjustable. Oh well.

 

[RagnarKon]

That makes sense as to why it sounds much better when I switch the amp to low-level input. It's still way too low, but I feel better knowing it is in-fact a low-level input.

I find it odd that Ford gave me a factory subwoofer, running a dedicated low-level input, but gave me zero subwoofer adjustability on the infotainment system. If it has a low-level signal, then how hard would it have been to make it adjustable. Oh well.

Mmmm just to clarify... cause I'm not exactly sure where you plugged in now.

The signal going into the factory amplifier is a low-level signal. The signal coming out of the factory amp and into the factory sub is a high-level signal.

 

[BloodDiamond]

I've removed the factory subwoofer amplifier, so I'm going straight from the wires that would have fed it. So, that should be low-level.

 

[BloodDiamond]

Update: I tuned everything as best I could and it's much improved. I'm still not anywhere near getting maximum power from this amp, which in some ways is good I guess (no worries about clipping). I'm still at max gain, but at least I can get that little 6.5 to move some air as much, if not more than the factory sub.

However, I've discovered a couple of things. One, this new SKAR 6.5" subwoofer is basically not audible below 60 Hz....all it does it make a bunch of flapping noise. I'm guessing that has to do with the tuning of the factory subwoofer enclosure. Over 60 Hz it's way better than factory. I turned down the bass boost since all it does is boost the lower (horrible sounding) range and I've set the high-pass to basically cut-out anything below 40 Hz.

I'm thinking of throwing a bunch of poly-fill into the enclosure to see if that helps. I'd rather hear nothing, than a bunch of flapping. It sounds really bad.

 

[RagnarKon]

However, I've discovered a couple of things. One, this new SKAR 6.5" subwoofer is basically not audible below 60 Hz....all it does it make a bunch of flapping noise. I'm guessing that has to do with the tuning of the factory subwoofer enclosure. Over 60 Hz it's way better than factory. I turned down the bass boost since all it does is boost the lower (horrible sounding) range and I've set the high-pass to basically cut-out anything below 40 Hz.

Yeah your guess is correct.

Basically... if you don't seal that enclosure you need to set your filters correctly on your 500.1... otherwise you could blow out that subwoofer.

I have a video for it if you want to give it a shot. Around the 27 minute mark.

 

[BloodDiamond]

Your videos have been a great guide for most of this conversion. I opted for a replacement 6.5" vs the 8" thinking it would be a more straight-forward swap, and also because it falls into the recommended ported enclosure specs, but I ended up having to enlarge the opening anyways so I probably should have went for the 8". Perhaps, in time, I will end up sealing the enclosure and moving up to the 8".

For now, my thought is to focus on reinforcing the front wall of the enclosure. I'm thinking there is significant flex happening since the SKAR 6.5 has a very tiny outside diameter compared to the factory sub. There is basically no support around the sub other than the flimsy stand-off ring. What I am considering doing now, is 3D printing a replacement stand-off ring which will wrap tightly around the smaller sub, and beef it way up.

I had another idea of just filling that gap with Plasti-weld. That stuff is pretty rigid. Might be all I need. Perhaps I can use that as a proof-of-concept, and if it helps, then work on designing/printing that improved ring.

 

[BloodDiamond]

For reference.

 

[BloodDiamond]

I like to put a conclusion on my threads. For anyone else with the 7-speaker (non B&O) system who goes through a similar experience, here were my findings:

1. I believe (but haven't confirmed) that the Bass setting acts as a subwoofer level control. If the Bass is set to halfway or below, there is effectively zero output to the low-level inputs at the amp. Turning up the Bass effects the amp input signal exponentially.

2. The SKAR 6.5 sub will fit the factory enclosure, BUT you will need to enlarge the opening slightly. I used a dremel and "chamfered" the opening to leave as much material as possible.

3. The SKAR (dual 4ohm, wired to 2ohm final) will sound like TRASH without further modifications to the factory enclosure and proper settings adjustments on the Kicker 500.1

4. After enlarging the opening of the enclosure, reinforce the enclosure from the INSIDE around the hole using J-B PlastiWeld. I spread it past the 4X speaker mounting screw holes to give the screws more strength as well.

5. Add a bead of the PlastiWeld around the bottom edge of the factory speaker stand-off ring. That ring normally does not touch the box (slight gap). With the PlastiWeld bead, it makes solid contact with the box stiffening it significantly.

6. Add polyfill to the enclosure. Don't be afraid to use a lot. I nearly stuffed it full.

7. The SKAR 6.5 has a crazy amount of excursion at low frequencies (under 40 Hz). It moves too much air for the factory enclosure port length/opening, creating chuffing noise. To minimize this, turn the high-pass (subsonic) filter to the highest setting, or just under the highest (I'm at like 90%...so around 40 Hz). This doesn't completely restrict the low excursion, but it helps significantly.

8. Turn down the bass-boost. Mine is at like maybe 10%, but likely I will turn completely off.

9. My amp gain is still at 100%, which normally I would never do, but the amp is nowhere near clipping, and this gives me maximum flexibility using the remote gain knob at my dashboard.

10. Give the SKAR some time to break-in. After bumping it all morning I can already hear a major improvement in sound quality, and a huge reduction in cone flutter noise. I will likely re-tune once it settles in.

11. Add some sound damping to the giant plastic side panel (from the inside obviously). I just used polyester foam batting and it helps.

In conclusion, the SKAR 6.5 with the Kicker 500.1 finally does "hit harder" than the OEM sub/amp combo, but it's not as simple of a swap as I thought it would be. I believe I will be satisfied, but if I want to get more audible range out of this 6.5 I may end up building a custom enclosure. I have a design in mind that will mount in the factory location.

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