Ford Skunkworks (EVDC) - first ever behind the scenes tour

[5GENIDN]

Welcome to CA and it's lefty judges.

+No... there is more to the story... There is an explanation as to why they arrived at their conclusion.... WE... as in us discussing this right now... seem to be missing a big part of the story. To dismiss it as "lefty judges" is simply lazy. Can you even name the judges? can you tell me about their personality and something about their judicial history?.... I can accept not having answers until I do.... but to just write the whole question off in generalizations is intellectually lazy and I refuse to accept that.

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[PIG1]

They can keep every EV. My cold, dead hands is what they are going to pry my ICE "keys" from.

100% agree!

 

[tourproto]

Only means you can accept the change in one area but not another...

Lets be honest, you obviously see value in electric lawn mowers and tools... But no matter how good a vehicle becomes you are not going to accept it? why?

What if it had 1000 mile range, charged in 30 minutes and only weighed 3000 lbs while producing 1000 ft lbs torque?

When that vehicle is available, hit me up and I will buy it. My guess is I will be 6 feet under before this happens. FYI, I work in the EV space, don't have an EV, and don't plan to buy an EV anytime soon. A big part is the practicality for your personal life. What is out there today will not work for me.

At best it would be a "local" vehicle. An EV does not work for me as a primary vehicle and it will not until the things happen as you stated above, and that isn't going to happen anytime soon. The battery technology and infrastructure isn't there. For people in urban environments, that never go out in nature, an EV can be a great choice. For those of us that go out deep into nature, an EV is a no-go.

 

[5GENIDN]

When that vehicle is available, hit me up and I will buy it. My guess is I will be 6 feet under before this happens. FYI, I work in the EV space, don't have an EV, and don't plan to buy an EV anytime soon. A big part is the practicality for your personal life. What is out there today will not work for me.

At best it would be a "local" vehicle. An EV does not work for me as a primary vehicle and it will not until the things happen as you stated above, and that isn't going to happen anytime soon. The battery technology and infrastructure isn't there. For people in urban environments, that never go out in nature, an EV can be a great choice. For those of us that go out deep into nature, an EV is a no-go.

I do not own one either... Not going to suggest it is a good option for anyone at this time... I agree that maybe for some it might work as an interurban A to B transport....

My point was Do not write them off for the future..."I will Never Ever own an EV" attitude is silly. Electric motors have a lot to offer. Right now EVs do not have enough range for me, there is not enough charging infrastructure, and the simply weight too much (even for road use) for ME.... your needs will be different.

Point two; and this may or may not effect you.... EVs are very early in the product life cycle and the technology is changing very very quickly. I am not talking months, I am talking years.... but the the technological learning curve is dramatically steeper than for a very mature product like ICE motors. ICE are still improving (very impressively I might add) but not at the rate that battery technology, super capacitor technology, electric motor technology are improving.

If current trends continue I probably will own an EV sometime in the next 20 years. I firmly believe that their "utility and function" will surpass ICE within that time frame. I may be wrong but I do not think I am far off.

BUT to write them off as if they were the spawn of Satan is a mistake in my opinion. It is like saying I will never give up my horse and get one of those automobile machines.... The change and acceptance happened over only a couple of decades. People still have Horses.... but...

 

[tourproto]

I do not own one either... Not going to suggest it is a good option for anyone at this time... I agree that maybe for some it might work as an interurban A to B transport....

My point was Do not write them off for the future..."I will Never Ever own an EV" attitude is silly. Electric motors have a lot to offer. Right now EVs do not have enough range for me, there is not enough charging infrastructure, and the simply weight too much (even for road use) for ME.... your needs will be different.

Point two; and this may or may not effect you.... EVs are very early in the product life cycle and the technology is changing very very quickly. I am not talking months, I am talking years.... but the the technological learning curve is dramatically steeper than for a very mature product like ICE motors. ICE are still improving (very impressively I might add) but not at the rate that battery technology, super capacitor technology, electric motor technology are improving.

If current trends continue I probably will own an EV sometime in the next 20 years. I firmly believe that their "utility and function" will surpass ICE within that time frame. I may be wrong but I do not think I am far off.

BUT to write them off as if they were the spawn of Satan is a mistake in my opinion. It is like saying I will never give up my horse and get one of those automobile machines.... The change and acceptance happened over only a couple of decades. People still have Horses.... but...

5GENIDN, I am in the space. My company is engaged with automakers and ecosystem companies worldwide. EVs today are absolutely viable for a portion of the population in the US and they are NOT going away (sorry if I gave that impression). But absent incentives, and optimal geographic location, market penetration isn't going to change significantly in a short period of time. Autocratic countries like China can absolutely force adoption, that won't work well in the US. CA is going to have to reverse their "mandate" for no new ICE vehicles for sale after 2035. Make a snapshot of this post because IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. It was a political stunt to win points, and they will change it but figure out some way to still claim progressive victory.

Battery technology isn't scaling nearly fast enough to enable commercially viable 1000 mile range or sub-30 min recharge times. And our government will never federally mandate anything of the sort. That is a sure-fire way to be out of a job in the next election cycle. EVs are here to stay but co-existence with ICE will be required for a VERY long time. Climate change or no climate change. ICE vehicles are going nowhere soon, especially once you look inside the two coasts.

 

[5GENIDN]

5GENIDN, I am in the space. My company is engaged with automakers and ecosystem companies worldwide. EVs today are absolutely viable for a portion of the population in the US and they are NOT going away (sorry if I gave that impression). But absent incentives, and optimal geographic location, market penetration isn't going to change significantly in a short period of time. Autocratic countries like China can absolutely force adoption, that won't work well in the US. CA is going to have to reverse their "mandate" for no new ICE vehicles for sale after 2035. Make a snapshot of this post because IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. It was a political stunt to win points, and they will change it but figure out some way to still claim progressive victory.

Battery technology isn't scaling nearly fast enough to enable commercially viable 1000 mile range or sub-30 min recharge times. And our government will never federally mandate anything of the sort. That is a sure-fire way to be out of a job in the next election cycle. EVs are here to stay but co-existence with ICE will be required for a VERY long time. Climate change or no climate change. ICE vehicles are going nowhere soon, especially once you look inside the two coasts.

I agree that mandates would not be a good choice. Never have been. My opinion is based more on the research side rather than the current state of manufacture, and I believe based on the information I see, is that change is afoot. It is already in the pipeline. The value of which has absolutely nothing to do with politics or climate change or anything other than the value proposition offered by the product.

Like I said, I may be wrong. I will defer to your current "boots on the ground" view of the current state of affairs. For the last 40 years I have had a habit of reading the research papers submitted for pier review who's titles peak my interest.. Occupational habit I guess. From that angle I have not seen technological innovation to this scale.... ever? It is coming hard and fast from everywhere in the world. Much of the research seems to have nothing to do with the automotive industry but will have significant downstream effects. Much of it will never pass scrutiny and never leave the lab, but what does? There will be changes, significant changes. You already have multiple companies real world testing solid state batteries with plans for mass production in the VERY near term. China is running a mass transit system that charges super capacitors in seconds... The Bus stops to pick up passengers and parks over a coil.... In less than 30 seconds it picks up more than enough charge to move well beyond the next stop and another full charge. Granted it is charging often, Its range is severely limited but it fits the use case well and is a leap frog event for super capacitors, just like the super capacitors powering the electric motors in F1 cars... The only charge they receive is through braking, but unlike a battery they can (round trip) capture and then reconvert that momentum at a 80% plus rate... Pretty impressive.

 

[tourproto]

I agree that mandates would not be a good choice. Never have been. My opinion is based more on the research side rather than the current state of manufacture, and I believe based on the information I see, is that change is afoot. It is already in the pipeline. The value of which has absolutely nothing to do with politics or climate change or anything other than the value proposition offered by the product.

Like I said, I may be wrong. I will defer to your current "boots on the ground" view of the current state of affairs. For the last 40 years I have had a habit of reading the research papers submitted for pier review who's titles peak my interest.. Occupational habit I guess. From that angle I have not seen technological innovation to this scale.... ever? It is coming hard and fast from everywhere in the world. Much of the research seems to have nothing to do with the automotive industry but will have significant downstream effects. Much of it will never pass scrutiny and never leave the lab, but what does? There will be changes, significant changes. You already have multiple companies real world testing solid state batteries with plans for mass production in the VERY near term. China is running a mass transit system that charges super capacitors in seconds... The Bus stops to pick up passengers and parks over a coil.... In less than 30 seconds it picks up more than enough charge to move well beyond the next stop and another full charge. Granted it is charging often, Its range is severely limited but it fits the use case well and is a leap frog event for super capacitors, just like the super capacitors powering the electric motors in F1 cars... The only charge they receive is through braking, but unlike a battery they can (round trip) capture and then reconvert that momentum at a 80% plus rate... Pretty impressive.

interesting technology and commercially viable technology are sadly 2 very different beasts.

Battery-related companies are failing worldwide right now. The only tide that is rising is China.

Lithium production’s is controlled by China (for many reasons) and that is problematic for the rest of the world that supposedly wants to go electric.

There is a very big gap between progressives that insist we have to go electric to save the world for our children, and the reality of what needs to happen from a manufacturing perspective to make it a reality.

Democrats in the US and progressives in RoW don’t live in reality, they live in a 24/7 news cycle that rewards “left wing posturing“ for their base. For their vision of EV utopia to come true, they will need to fight with others in their same echo chamber (environmentalists) and it will get ugly because their visions are at odds with each other and they don’t know how to compromise (Lithium Ion production is very very dirty)

and along with all that, the oil companies are doing all they can to put roadblocks up to slow EV adoption.

I think battery technology and commercialization should be a “moonshot” effort from our government. Not mandates like CA which is like the tail wagging the dog. But actual investment and incentives from the govt to help make all of this viable. We are gonna get run over by China otherwise. Oil isn’t going anywhere. but batteries are going to be essential moving forward as well.

 

[5GENIDN]

interesting technology and commercially viable technology are sadly 2 very different beasts.

Battery-related companies are failing worldwide right now. The only tide that is rising is China.

Lithium production’s is controlled by China (for many reasons) and that is problematic for the rest of the world that supposedly wants to go electric.

There is a very big gap between progressives that insist we have to go electric to save the world for our children, and the reality of what needs to happen from a manufacturing perspective to make it a reality.

Democrats in the US and progressives in RoW don’t live in reality, they live in a 24/7 news cycle that rewards “left wing posturing“ for their base. For their vision of EV utopia to come true, they will need to fight with others in their same echo chamber (environmentalists) and it will get ugly because their visions are at odds with each other and they don’t know how to compromise (Lithium Ion production is very very dirty)

and along with all that, the oil companies are doing all they can to put roadblocks up to slow EV adoption.

I think battery technology and commercialization should be a “moonshot” effort from our government. Not mandates like CA which is like the tail wagging the dog. But actual investment and incentives from the govt to help make all of this viable. We are gonna get run over by China otherwise. Oil isn’t going anywhere. but batteries are going to be essential moving forward as well.

I have not mentioned politics but it seems to a bit of an issue for you.... I am going to continue to not address the politics..... Not my ballywhack....

I agree that Lithium is problematic. (technically speaking). There are a number of options being proven viable in lab settings currently. Several are coming to market as we speak but they are not as energy dense and are exceptional alternatives for immovable storage. Not for vehicles. they weigh too much. BUT battery research is splitting. End use scenarios are driving development in different directions.

I believe in the next ten years you will see a considerable number of options that serve different purposes... Many of those options do NOT include lithium in their chemistry. The vast majority of this research and development is being driven by industries other than the automotive market although they WILL have a significant impact. That is just an opinion based on historical learning curves and product life cycles. MY observation and prediction... that is all.... I am NOT advocating change to address societal and environmental issues.

Hell I am not even advocating for change.... I am only predicting change based on what I am seeing happen and the historical record of change. Nothing more.

 

[tourproto]

I have not mentioned politics but it seems to a bit of an issue for you.... I am going to continue to not address the politics..... Not my ballywhack....

I agree that Lithium is problematic. (technically speaking). There are a number of options being proven viable in lab settings currently. Several are coming to market as we speak but they are not as energy dense and are exceptional alternatives for immovable storage. Not for vehicles. they weigh too much. BUT battery research is splitting. End use scenarios are driving development in different directions.

I believe in the next ten years you will see a considerable number of options that serve different purposes... Many of those options do NOT include lithium in their chemistry. The vast majority of this research and development is being driven by industries other than the automotive market although they WILL have a significant impact. That is just an opinion based on historical learning curves and product life cycles. MY observation and prediction... that is all.... I am NOT advocating change to address societal and environmental issues.

Hell I am not even advocating for change.... I am only predicting change based on what I am seeing happen and the historical record of change. Nothing more.

All fair points, I guess I will end the conversation that the "best" technology doesn't necessarily win in the market place. (Betamax vs VHS, Netscape vs IE)

No question that grid energy (which is necessary for wind and solar to become more mainstream as viable energy alternatives as opposed to temporal power sources) is looking for ways to become more financially viable, and it is possible they may find a way that is not aligned with automotive.

However, commercialization for an entire supply chain will be what is needed, not just a cool idea in a lab. For scale, all the raw materials need to be available in massive volumes, and manufacturing capacity will need to be built (processing of those raw materials as well as final assembly e.g. gigafactories). To build only the latter and not address the former is like a four-legged stool with only 3 legs, marginally stable at best.

Another saying is that you can hate politics, refuse to play politics, but to not realize politics exist and that a game is being played whether you like it or not, is foolish (not you specifically, but for society as a whole). And it does have, and will continue to have a major impact on the Western world's development of battery-based energy.

Pretty sure we are on the same side on this, but you are probably more idealistic and hopeful than I am on the outcome.

 

[4XMORE]

I gotta say I'm looking forward to seeing a bronco EV. I take my cybertruck off road and honestly... its really nice!

The torque is great and the traction control can do some really cool things having instant torque. Now I give up some range with it, but overall I've been happy with the experience.

I am actually taking it camping this weekend in Johnson Valley. It's great having the battery to power camp and it tows the trailer nicely. There are supercharges everywhere these days so range isn't an issue.

If the bronco was a EV or Hybrid I would strongly consider it provided it uses the Tesla charging network.

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