Ford agrees to $9.2 billion US government loan

[flip]

chiming in from the OEM tier 1 supplier side. Our company has also HEAVILY invested into the EV hype. We had to or else we get left behind and will not be selling our product to any OEM. IMO I still have many questions on the viability of the EV hype, but like it or not we are taking this journey and there is no getting of the ride.
Like many have said before these are big fundamental questions;

1)environmental a) where do batteries go to die & what are the impacts
b) mining of battery source materials truly green

2) sustainable a) if some states like CA already have power grid issues how do I reliably charge my EV
b) where are building codes that install properly sized transformers so high density EV charging is feasible at home. Can metro suburban areas have entire subdivisions charging their cars simultaneously at night using level 2 chargers
c) RANGE!

3) true cost of operation a) cost to charge / maintain / replace batteries

There are many more issues but my point is there are some large fundamental questions that are not answered, but still the industry is in full on EV mode and it seems like no plan on how to get there. The proverbial cart is most definitely before the horse. I hope I am wrong and some very smart people have figured this all out

It seems to me like the roof and walls went up before the foundation was poured. All of the stuff you said above seems to be taboo question to ask of the industry. We're moving at a speed that's outpacing the underlying critical factors. If Ford spent years developing and researching, why now are they admitting Tesla's charge plugs are superior? I think this is all a race for $$ more than about sustainability over the long haul.

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[Sherminiator]

If Ford spent years developing and researching, why now are they admitting Tesla's charge plugs are superior?

They aren't, just their charging network is.

 

[Sherminiator]

chiming in from the OEM tier 1 supplier side. Our company has also HEAVILY invested into the EV hype. We had to or else we get left behind and will not be selling our product to any OEM. IMO I still have many questions on the viability of the EV hype, but like it or not we are taking this journey and there is no getting of the ride.
Like many have said before these are big fundamental questions;

1)environmental
a) where do batteries go to die & what are the impacts
b) mining of battery source materials truly green

2) sustainable
a) if some states like CA already have power grid issues how do I reliably charge my EV
b) where are building codes that install properly sized transformers so high density EV charging is feasible at home. Can metro & suburban areas have entire subdivisions charging their cars simultaneously at night using level 2 chargers
c) RANGE!

3) true cost of operation
a) cost to charge / maintain / replace batteries

There are many more issues but my point is there are some large fundamental questions that are not answered, but still the industry is in full on EV mode and it seems like no plan on how to get there. The proverbial cart is most definitely before the horse. I hope I am wrong and some very smart people have figured this all out

Battery recycling:
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...ford-redwood-materials-battery-recycling.html

Power grid issues-California is its own beast that needs to be tackled in its own post-but not being able to charge for say 4 hours at peak usage (lets say 4-8PM) isn't an major issue when normally you'd be charging overnight when its cheaper to do so. You normally don't drive your car for at least 18-22 hours a day and I'd say at least half that time its at your house. If anything EVs would help improve the grid by providing a battery back up for housing.

Level 2 chargers are roughly 40-100 AMP draw. The question your asking is like oh will the power stay on if everyone's AC is running at the same time in neighborhood. Not to mention you don't need to charge your vehicle every day-you don't fill up your ICE every day do you?

Range is overstated-yeah there is issues towing (I don't tow really, so I don't care) and if its something you do every day that requires it, an EV isn't quite there yet.

For someone that works an OEM, I would think you'd know better...the Auto industry is a long lead time and what your working on today doesn't show up on the showroom floor till years later..thus why manufactures are talking about it now...and it also helps their stock prices, which are an indication of future value. See Teslas stock over the years.

 

[TNTim]

The Tennessee plant is down the road from my house. Huge economical impact to the local area. The government is forcing the hand of the MFG, I’m just glad it’s funding local jobs vs oversees. If Ford didn’t do this or take the money they would be idiots who would fall behind the rest of the market.

I for one am not in any hurry for an EV but to each their own.

 

[huey]

Battery recycling:
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...ford-redwood-materials-battery-recycling.html

Level 2 chargers are roughly 40-100 AMP draw. The question your asking is like oh will the power stay on if everyone's AC is running at the same time in neighborhood. Not to mention you don't need to charge your vehicle every day-you don't fill up your ICE every day do you?

I have spoken to the head of the regional power association in our area - his exact words are "the region does not have large enough transformers or circuits to handle this demand even in the newest subdivisions" Obviously not all areas are the same, but we don't have regular brown outs due to overwhelming demand. Those areas that do have those brown outs are surely facing a larger challenge on the grid / infrastructure.

Battery recycling:
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...ford-redwood-materials-battery-recycling.html

For someone that works an OEM, I would think you'd know better...the Auto industry is a long lead time and what your working on today doesn't show up on the showroom floor till years later..thus why manufactures are talking about it now...and it also helps their stock prices, which are an indication of future value. See Teslas stock over the years.

lol I have no idea what your point is here
but to clarify I work as an OEM tier 1 supplier - so yes what we produce today ends up at the assembly plant within a week to be built into a vehicle.

In case you are under the assumption I am against EV's you are mistaken. The company I work for is investing many Billions into EV's. We are currently building 2 new facilities to support one of our customers in Tennessee. My paycheck is gone if EV's fail. I am simply stating what is fairly obvious - the industry is heading into EV's full speed without proper planning.

 

[huey]

The Tennessee plant is down the road from my house. Huge economical impact to the local area. The government is forcing the hand of the MFG, I’m just glad it’s funding local jobs vs oversees. If Ford didn’t do this or take the money they would be idiots who would fall behind the rest of the market.

I for one am not in any hurry for an EV but to each their own.

I'm sure "blue oval city" is going to have a massive impact on that area. I hope there are enough workers in the area to fill all the new jobs!
Crazy thing is these projects have effects that are not always seen. When we were picking our sites for the new plants there are rail bridges that may need to be rebuilt as they are not tall enough to transport our product efficiently to the assembly plant. And yes the OEM is holding the cards, jump on and meet our timing, or loose your market share to a competitor that will meet the demands. Very understated how much is at risk on this shift to EV

 

[Sherminiator]

I have spoken to the head of the regional power association in our area - his exact words are "the region does not have large enough transformers or circuits to handle this demand even in the newest subdivisions" Obviously not all areas are the same, but we don't have regular brown outs due to overwhelming demand. Those areas that do have those brown outs are surely facing a larger challenge on the grid / infrastructure.

But that is on the power company to build out that power-even without EVs it is an issue.

Power companies are facing lots of issues but its not like one day we will be finding 500K EVs on the power grid overnight either. It will be gradual increase over the next 10-12 years.

 

[huey]

But that is on the power company to build out that power-even without EVs it is an issue.

Power companies are facing lots of issues but its not like one day we will be finding 500K EVs on the power grid overnight either. It will be gradual increase over the next 10-12 years.

well, power delivery is not currently an issue here(my area) as things stand today. Its only an issue because if/when every other(ish) driveway has an EV there are substantial upgrades needed. Your comment is just not true.

For example a new 3 million sq ft battery plant is being built in the same industrial park as our facility. We are a large building just under half that battery plant size, we consume millions of dollars of juice yearly and have our own 121 kilovolt substation. That battery plant requires a new substation on the order of 10 times what we currently use. The EV shift will dramatically alter the requirements and demands of the grid and delivery circuits. Again, there is no clear plan.

You are entitled to your opinion, understand I work in the industry and see the issues coming as does many of the auto suppliers

edit: just in case you feel like reading @Sherminator , posted some links
these 3 plants battery plants are all being built at the same time within a few hours of each other. The three plants represent an near 8 billion dollar investment
15 new battery plants are currently planned in the US alone. There has never been an accelerated shift in the auto industry of this scale, in such a short timeframe.

1 battery plant
https://www.enr.com/articles/54740-2b-electric-vehicle-battery-plant-breaks-ground-in-kentucky
2 more
https://www.thetimestribune.com/ken...cle_8b2c413c-204e-11ec-9ab6-fb32f49e21a3.html

 

[Imonamoose]

I still have many questions on the viability of the EV hype, but like it or not we are taking this journey and there is no getting of the ride.

Bullshit. I will never own a EV ever so help me bob. I actively seek businesses that feel the same way. Reject them openly and I will go out of my way to give you my business and my money.

Vote with your wallet. Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

[huey]

Bullshit. I will never own a EV ever so help me bob. I actively seek businesses that feel the same way. Reject them openly and I will go out of my way to give you my business and my money.

Vote with your wallet. Be the change you want to see in the world.

I think you misunderstand me - I am not saying everyone is buying or has to buy an EV,. The "we" i refer to is the auto industry. There is absolutely nothing bullshit about how quickly the auto industry is shifting. I will not even remotely touch politics on this forum - too many triggered folks lol

 

[Imonamoose]

I think you misunderstand me - I am not saying everyone is buying or has to buy an EV,. The "we" i refer to is the auto industry. There is absolutely nothing bullshit about how quickly the auto industry is shifting. I will not even remotely touch politics on this forum - too many triggered folks lol

Sorry, I was intending to be supportive of your points. Just wanted to reinforce that most consumers do not want and will not accept the trash EV lies. We absolutely can get off the ride. A plurality of us never got on it and never will no matter how hard they force it. I will go out of my way to do business with companies that see this reality. All others... I hope they go broke and fail; they will never get another cent from me if I can reasonably avoid it.

 

[Sherminiator]

Just wanted to reinforce that most consumers do not want and will not accept the trash EV lies. We absolutely can get off the ride. A plurality of us never got on it and never will no matter how hard they force it.

You must not like catalytic converters, safety features or improvements in MPGs either that we’ve gotten over the past fifty years due to government mandates.

It’s coming like it or not. I wasn’t a fan of them till I got drive in one and dug into the issue some more. I don’t think it’s as bad nor as good as some people may make it out to be.

 

[Razorbak86]

Sorry, I was intending to be supportive of your points. Just wanted to reinforce that most consumers do not want and will not accept the trash EV lies. We absolutely can get off the ride. A plurality of us never got on it and never will no matter how hard they force it. I will go out of my way to do business with companies that see this reality. All others... I hope they go broke and fail; they will never get another cent from me if I can reasonably avoid it.

Don’t worry. The Amish still drive carriages pulled by horses, and you can still ride your moose, if you want. Land of the Free, and all that!

 

[flip]

They aren't, just their charging network is.

They make adapters to go from one to the other. Ford is adding the Tesla plug on the '25 models, assuming they can get it done before the deadline. After that they're talking about only having NACS ports only on future models. If it was just about access to the network, all you need is an adapter to go both ways. They basically said tough cookies to the dealers that ordered chargers, get an adapter so they work with the new stuff coming out in 3 years.

Again, for a company that slow walks EVERYTHING, the full steam ahead approach and constantly changing plans or requirements, is not sitting well with the majority of the dealer body. It's definitely not about fear of change, it's the approach the company is taking to get to a "goal" they have yet to articulate well or can back up with anything more than speculation. We're not talking a program that is bringing new vehicles, they've openly said the plan is to eliminate as much ICE as possible and move to a majority EV lineup. That's all fine and dandy but what if no one shows up to buy the product and you've retooled most of your factories to support EV production.

No, this isn't an issue in the near term but it seems no one is willing to come out and say this is a huge gamble that could backfire. I have a long term outlook on things because it seems like a reasonable thing to do in business. Being in a rural area with 80% of our sales being work trucks, Ford's plan is not reassuring. The other consideration here is what happens when the political landscape changes? Looks like one party is determined to decimate our ability to produce power and once those plants shut down, it's over. There's no amount of wind or solar that's going to backfill the need nationally. At least not in the next few decades and there's no possibility of storage for when the sun isn't shining and wind isn't blowing.

Maybe looking at this strictly from the consumer side of things is appealing because of new product offerings and it fits in with with their transportation needs and lifestyle. For the majority of the people between the Atlantic and Pacific, it's not as appealing. I don't care what polls say most of the data is cherry picked or conducted by organizations friendly to one side or the other. I just don't see the appeal to something that's regressive, expensive, inconsiderate of my time and forces me to take in a bunch of additional considerations when planning an extended trip. This is the feedback I'm getting from my customers and in discussion with other dealers.

 

[BaseManSquatch]

A lot of good points in this thread, however the more I read about EVs the more I am against them.

Everything about them bothers me, from having kids mine cobalt for the batteries in 3rd world countries to EVs being 2,000 pounds or more heavier due to the batteries and structure of the vehicle to support that kind of weight and thus being unsafe to the other driver when involved in a car crash.

I just read this article the other day:

A Rivian owner was in a fender bender. The repair bill was $42,000.


https://www.businessinsider.com/riv...r-repair-bill-shocking-expensive-42000-2023-7


So apparently if you have an EV and get into a minor fender bender it's gonna cost you like $11,000 or more to fix it. Think about it, the battery is the biggest piece of the vehicle and is very likely to get damaged in any accident and might have to be completely replaced.

In the near future I see a lot of insurance companies dropping EVs. You guys need to look at both the good and bad points of EVs.

I've also read stories about Tesla drivers being surprised how much they have to pay for insurance.


EVs official slogan:

"EVs. The privilege of saving $500 a year on gas only to pay an additional $2,000 or more per year in insurance."

I'm never going to own an EV.

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