Compared to a Defender - some general thoughts and concerns.

[DryYourTears]

Dang that is awesome! Darn it, I should have ordered my Defender way earlier, I waited too long and now I’m stuck behind the factory shut downs lol

I honestly think some of my luck was dealership choice, and I was feeling like you last month when I ordered and was cursing myself for not pulling the trigger in May. I had bad luck with local dealers and I was calling around to dealers all over trying to get something that was in stock (turns out many vehicles on the inventory site are customer orders, so that was mostly a waste), and in the process I found someone who was VERY good to work with. I'll travel ~5 hours to get it, but might have been waiting longer had I ordered elsewhere.

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[mcdoogs]

I am also in NoVa and also considered a Defender back in January when I placed my Bronco order after I took a test drive of the Defender 110. I have a VIN and built date (not that it's worth anything), but the deciding factor for me was that in 7 year a Defender is guaranteed to cost more in terms of maintenance. The reality is that Land Rover has a decades old well earned reputation for poor build quality and high maintenance costs. The air suspension has a near 100% failure rate. I expect the bronco to have several issues, but over the long term the Defender is going to cost tens of thousands more to own.

Totally, no way the long term maintenance costs aren't higher than any Ford's. A couple of things swayed me towards the Defender: It fills my DD/road-trip/towing needs much much better than the Bronco, which also meant I could reduce my Bronco order down near base for my 'fun weekender' car needs (if I slip to '22 I'll even switch to 2-door). Significantly, with the supply chain issues, lightly used Defenders are selling for over MSRP in many cases and I think that's going to persist for quite a while.

Basically, eventually, I'll have a Bronco and a Defender and a window in which to take a mulligan on either without taking much or any of a depreciation hit because of supply/demand shenanigans.

 

[ResEng68]

I might encourage potential purchasers to look at lease residuals as an indicator of 3 (or 4-5) year cost of ownership including depreciation. Lease residuals provide an unbiased market expectation of depreciation and expected sales price when you exit your purchase.

I just wrapped up a purchase decision (Candidates: Bronco, Wrangler, Defender, 4Runner) and I was shocked by how much higher the implied cost of ownership was for a Defender. I'll include a few generic examples.

	MSRP	Residual (3yr, 12k miles)	Total Depreciation
Land Rover	$60k	58%	$25,200
Bronco	$45k	72%	$12,600
Wrangler	$45k	72%	$12,600
4Runner	$45k	72%	$12,600

Residuals were sampled from the Edmunds forums discussing residuals. Bronco discussion was limited but generally seemed in-line with the Wrangler and 4Runner. I chose an MSRP spec where vehicle makeup would likely be similar (E.g. 4-door, engine offering, mid-finish, etc.).

It is notable that the depreciation for the Land Rover is 2x that of its' competitors. There are of course other costs of ownership such as fuel ($2k / year) and maintenance (negligible on a <3 year old car). However, depreciation is the largest expense, and owning a Defender was equivalent to owning two if its' peers.

I won't weigh in on the design factors with the Defender (liked some elements, disliked others). However, I will state that the striking delta in cost factors drove us to go with on of the other three offerings.

 

[DryYourTears]

I might encourage potential purchasers to look at lease residuals as an indicator of 3 (or 4-5) year cost of ownership including depreciation. Lease residuals provide an unbiased market expectation of depreciation and expected sales price when you exit your purchase.

I just wrapped up a purchase decision (Candidates: Bronco, Wrangler, Defender, 4Runner) and I was shocked by how much higher the implied cost of ownership was for a Defender. I'll include a few generic examples.

	MSRP	Residual (3yr, 12k miles)	Total Depreciation
Land Rover	$60k	58%	$25,200
Bronco	$45k	72%	$12,600
Wrangler	$45k	72%	$12,600
4Runner	$45k	72%	$12,600

Residuals were sampled from the Edmunds forums discussing residuals. Bronco discussion was limited but generally seemed in-line with the Wrangler and 4Runner. I chose an MSRP spec where vehicle makeup would likely be similar (E.g. 4-door, engine offering, mid-finish, etc.).

It is notable that the depreciation for the Land Rover is 2x that of its' competitors. There are of course other costs of ownership such as fuel ($2k / year) and maintenance (negligible on a <3 year old car). However, depreciation is the largest expense, and owning a Defender was equivalent to owning two if its' peers.

I won't weigh in on the design factors with the Defender (liked some elements, disliked others). However, I will state that the striking delta in cost factors drove us to go with on of the other three offerings.

Three thoughts:

1) I'm curious how this works out on a Bronco that's closer to $60k (optioned Badlands) than $45k.

2) I've never purchased a car with residual value in mind. I buy what works for me and makes me "happy". YMMV.

3) This chart seems odd. Three vehicles all with the same price point and exact same depreciation? In any case, the Bronco is estimated at this point. If they have continuing issues, that will definitely hit the wallet, if that's something you're concerned about.

 

[ResEng68]

Three thoughts:

1) I'm curious how this works out on a Bronco that's closer to $60k (optioned Badlands) than $45k.

2) I've never purchased a car with residual value in mind. I buy what works for me and makes me "happy". YMMV.

3) This chart seems odd. Three vehicles all with the same price point and exact same depreciation? In any case, the Bronco is estimated at this point. If they have continuing issues, that will definitely hit the wallet, if that's something you're concerned about.

Great challenges.

I'll address item #3 first. There's a range of quoted lease residuals rates by car type (4D residuals were higher), location, time of quote and other factors. The numbers quoted for Jeeps, 4Runners and Broncos were generally similar to the extent that I didn't want to bias the table by picking 72% for one, 73% for another, and 70% for the third.

The nice side of using leases to gauge expected depreciation/residuals is that there's somebody on the other end (E.g. a bank) who has a big interest in getting their estimate correct. Come in too punitive, and all the deal-flow goes elsewhere. Come in too generous, and you're on the hook for the losses come buyback time. People who buy with an eye towards selling in 3-5 years are in-effect doing a self-funded lease.

On item #1. It looks like the more base-spec 110 tallies in the $55k when moderate adds are made (E.g. alloy wheels, non-white color, etc.). I found that equivalent Jeeps (Sport S) and Broncos (Big Bend) were generally coming in at the $40k range... now I know that most build at a bit higher spec and decided to add $5k to all 3-cars to better "mid-point" the typical build.

On item #2. I agree that owner preference is and should be the primary driver. I was merely trying to provide a "finances" perspective.

 

[DryYourTears]

Great challenges.

I'll address item #3 first. There's a range of quoted lease residuals rates by car type (4D residuals were higher), location, time of quote and other factors. The numbers quoted for Jeeps, 4Runners and Broncos were generally similar to the extent that I didn't want to bias the table by picking 72% for one, 73% for another, and 70% for the third.

The nice side of using leases to gauge expected depreciation/residuals is that there's somebody on the other end (E.g. a bank) who has a big interest in getting their estimate correct. Come in too punitive, and all the deal-flow goes elsewhere. Come in too generous, and you're on the hook for the losses come buyback time. People who buy with an eye towards selling in 3-5 years are in-effect doing a self-funded lease.

On item #1. It looks like the more base-spec 110 tallies in the $55k when moderate adds are made (E.g. alloy wheels, non-white color, etc.). I found that equivalent Jeeps (Sport S) and Broncos (Big Bend) were generally coming in at the $40k range... now I know that most build at a bit higher spec and decided to add $5k to all 3-cars to better "mid-point" the typical build.

On item #2. I agree that owner preference is and should be the primary driver. I was merely trying to provide a "finances" perspective.

I think it's tough to do an apples-to-apples comparison based on price, based on what is "lux" to Ford vs what is "SE" to Land Rover (for example). In general, the Defender comes with a LOT more stuff standard. The Badlands I ordered was about $56k - Badlands, 2.7, MIC, lux, leather, tow. The Defender is nowhere near the top "lux" level (because I won't spend THAT much on a car), but it comes better equipped at the lower level. In any case, still more expensive, and I do expect any car that hits a certain price point is going to have higher depreciation for various reasons, and I fully expect it to be higher than the Bronco.

I get the finance perspective, and I also get that being able to afford a loaded Bronco or a moderately spec'd Defender is a luxury in any case. At this point my highest valued vehicle (based on sticker) is a '17 Escape titanium at $36k, so maybe I'll end up caring more about resale this time around with a pricier vehicle.

 

[ferbm]

I really don't care about what you all are discussing in this post. You are humans, so peace and love! But really, yall are messed up in the head if you're seriously cross-shopping the Defender and the Bronco.... I think you missed the point.

 

[DryYourTears]

I really don't care about what you all are discussing in this post. You are humans, so peace and love! But really, yall are messed up in the head if you're seriously cross-shopping the Defender and the Bronco.... I think you missed the point.

"I don't care!" "Peace and love!" *insults*

 

[Xploit]

Originally I was all about the Defender 90. Then the reveal came and I was let down that there was no open air options and I also was eh about the looks. That sent me to BRONCO. I waited for the reveal and made a reservation ASAP. I ordered a black 2 door badlands with optional wheels and the high package. A couple weeks ago I got to sit in and see a wild trak 2 door for the very first time. I hate to say it, but I was underwhelmed, maybe it was because I had seen soo many photos..I dont really know, but after getting into it and holding the steering wheel, I was just not excited at all. I felt it had a very cheap feel to it and the view from the front made the thing seem so HUGE. BY this point I had seen a few Defenders on the road, and every time I had a sighting , I was into it more and more. I decided to go test drive a 90. As I got to the Landrover dealer, I could see a D90 parked in front, and I knew I would be getting one. After the test drive, I ordered a Hakuba Silver with black top.

Someone I know once said that the really iconic designs are never embraced at first sight, they grow on you. This is exactly what happened to me with the Defender. I really love the way it looks and that took many sightings. It definitely has that premium feel that the Bronco lacks. I think if off roading is what you intend to do mostly, the Bronco is a great choice. For me, I am going to daily it and definitely intend to trail it a bit, but nothing severe. I am very happy with my choice and cant wait to receive it. My 2 door Badlands is built, but in purgatory awaiting a solution.

X-

 

[DryYourTears]

Well, it happened. June 20 order, late August delivery, and I drove it home yesterday. Still have my 99'd Bronco order, but after a five hour drive home, I'm very happy with the Defender, and since I never had plans to rock crawl (and I'm not dumb enough to try to rock crawl on aired down 20's), I think it'll be perfect for what we wanted.

I saw a recent article discussing the remote but not impossible chances of a more direct Defender competing Bronco (more lux), and I'll be keeping my eye on that. Still love the Bronco but that wait for a hard top... Ugh.

Even managed to wedge it into the garage. Ignore my one-side only EZ-pass attachment. I need another strip of velcro.

 

[De Brus]

Well, it happened. June 20 order, late August delivery, and I drove it home yesterday. Still have my 99'd Bronco order, but after a five hour drive home, I'm very happy with the Defender, and since I never had plans to rock crawl (and I'm not dumb enough to try to rock crawl on aired down 20's), I think it'll be perfect for what we wanted.

I saw a recent article discussing the remote but not impossible chances of a more direct Defender competing Bronco (more lux), and I'll be keeping my eye on that. Still love the Bronco but that wait for a hard top... Ugh.

Even managed to wedge it into the garage. Ignore my one-side only EZ-pass attachment. I need another strip of velcro.

Can I see more pics? How did you option your defender? 90 or 110? Cost? Thanks!

 

[Bronco4lyfe85]

I’m not sure I could trust Land Rover but that’s just based off what I’ve heard. They are sweet though, I’d definitely drive a defender but I’m not rich enough for that. The one I want appears to be 110K

 

[DryYourTears]

Can I see more pics? How did you option your defender? 90 or 110? Cost? Thanks!

It's a Defender 110 p400 se, to be specific. I added the off road and advanced off road packs (includes air suspension), heated and cooled seats, ClearSight rear view mirror, adaptive cruise, and white contrast top. Comes in about $16k over my Badlands build, but it also has far more features. About $74k. More pics to come!

I’m not sure I could trust Land Rover but that’s just based off what I’ve heard. They are sweet though, I’d definitely drive a defender but I’m not rich enough for that. The one I want appears to be 110K

The reliability was the only big concern I had, but I think they've worked out some early issues. We'll see. I think I'm out of their core financial demographic. I left out a few options to keep the price down, and my normally frugal wife convinced me to buy it because I think she knew I'd be happier.

I was straight up lucky that my former employer went public last year and I had stock options... not enough to retire (sadly), but my retirement fund is better funded, and I could cover the Bronco price difference. I grew up in a classically middle class house... drive for vacations and lots of camping, so this is a jump for me. I have to say... 48 hours later and the features and little attention to detail things have me really impressed.

 

[Bituman]

Congrats DYT, great vehicle! It’s one of the alternatives I’m considering to the WT I have on order. The “Lux” Bronco you mention would be another alternative if that ever happens.

If you have test driven a Bronco, how does the Defender compare with respect to engine performance? I’d really like to have your opinion.

 

[De Brus]

I don't care what anyone says here, the defender is pretty awesome bud. Congrats!

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